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Old 05-08-2010, 04:52 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by FIREdreamer View Post
Actually Germany (and the rest of the EU) has not agreed to pay for Greece's debts or to bail them out (gift them the money). The only thing they have agreed to is to lend money to Greece at a sub-market interest rate (5% IIRC) so that Greece can roll over its debt without going to the market and getting clubbed with sky high interest rates for the next few years.
Actually the Greek bailout is a Goldman Sachs bailout. The money is being used in part to repay Goldman Sachs and it's European bank cronies in full, for the fraudulent loans made to a previous (conservative) Greek government, so it could hide it's debts and enter the EU.

It's a shell game similar to the AIG bailout.

Americans should be aware that they bailed out Goldman Sachs once again, to the tune of $8 billion dollars, when the U.S. taxpayer funded IMF took part in the Greek bailout.

People should stop blaming Greek workers for the fraud committed by Wall Street bankers. Wall Street has been driving down the Euro in a form of financial extortion to insure they get paid back for their fraudulent loans. I don't understand why the European masses don't get this, why they don't kick out the bankers, why they blame themselves.
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Old 05-08-2010, 05:07 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Green Retirement View Post
Actually the Greek bailout is a Goldman Sachs bailout. The money is being used in part to repay Goldman Sachs and it's European bank cronies in full, for the fraudulent loans made to a previous (conservative) Greek government, so it could hide it's debts and enter the EU.
Can you link a source or two to validate this conspiracy?
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Old 05-08-2010, 05:20 PM   #23
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Sheesh, I have to wonder if, in some peoples eyes, there is anything Goldman Sachs is NOT guilty of.
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Old 05-08-2010, 05:39 PM   #24
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REWahoo:
I don't do conspiracies, it's not a conspiracy, it's all out in the open. Here are the sources and links or two you asked for:

Wall Street Journal
New York Times

What everyone on this board, particularly this board should be aware of, is that Greek workers are being forced to give up their retirements to pay back Goldman Sachs. The same thing is going to happen in the U.S., with the creation of the Budget Deficit Commission, Americans' retirements are next. Cheers.
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Old 05-08-2010, 05:48 PM   #25
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You know I've been thinking about this...

I have excellent credit and no use for it...

Im tempted to take up a few more of the offers from JP Morgan and Citi...

Pay my house off, no debt what so ever...

Then max em all out on Gold...

Then never pay it back

It seems wrong, but raising my taxes due to their actions also seems wrong
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Old 05-08-2010, 06:06 PM   #26
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The money is being used in part to repay Goldman Sachs and it's European bank cronies in full, for the fraudulent loans made to a previous (conservative) Greek government, so it could hide it's debts and enter the EU.
But the articles at the links you provided (to the NYT and WSJ) don't support your contention that the loans were fraudulent (unless the Greeks were the ones committing fraud by not disclosing these deals to the EU). From the NYT:
Quote:
Wall Street did not create Europe’s debt problem. But bankers enabled Greece and others to borrow beyond their means, in deals that were perfectly legal. Few rules govern how nations can borrow the money they need for expenses like the military and health care. The market for sovereign debt — the Wall Street term for loans to governments — is as unfettered as it is vast.
“If a government wants to cheat, it can cheat,” said Garry Schinasi, a veteran of the International Monetary Fund’s capital markets surveillance unit, which monitors vulnerability in global capital markets.
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People should stop blaming Greek workers for the fraud committed by Wall Street bankers. . . I don't understand why the European masses don't get this, why they don't kick out the bankers, why they blame themselves.
Where's the fraud by Wall Street bankers? And, history is full of examples of people paying the price for bad decisions by their governments--that's the way the world works. Maybe it's not "fair", but that's why elections are so important--there are no do-overs. The rest of the world doesn't care that "it's not our fault, it was the previous government that [wasted all that money/started that war/ruined our industries, etc] And the idea that the cash-starved Greeks would kick out bankers at this particular time is, um, "unrealistic". Unless they are forced to, by their new masters at the IMF and in Brussels.
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Old 05-08-2010, 06:17 PM   #27
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Here is an article saying the Greeks blame their political system, not Wall Street:

Quote:
What you will hear time after time, both at the protests and at workplaces and cafes, is that this crisis confirms the failure of the country’s political system. In other words, that for years politicians have been bleeding the country dry, looking after themselves and their friends and failing to build a robust economy and a country equipped to deal with the challenges of the 21st century.

There is anger at the pervasive, high-level corruption for which no politician is ever punished. People are also furious that no government has ever tackled influence-peddling in the public sector. The Greek branch of Transparency International estimated that Greeks paid almost euro800 million ($1 billion) in bribes last year. Why the Greeks are so angry
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Old 05-08-2010, 07:46 PM   #28
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Here is an article saying the Greeks blame their political system, not Wall Street:
From the same article - Why the Greeks are so angry - Europe- msnbc.com

"This feeling of unfairness is compounded when tax evasion also goes unpunished. Salaried professionals and civil servants have their wages taxed at source but many Greeks do not. And, what they declare often bears no resemblance to what they actually earn. The government believes that tax evasion could be worth up to euro30 billion ($38 billion) a year, or 12 percent of the country’s GDP. Allowing one part of the population to consistently get away without paying while Greece’s public finances are propped up by the same people all the time creates incredible resentment. That’s why you hear many Greeks say they will put up with the austerity measures if the government ensures that everybody pays their fair share. If people believe that the usual suspects, who in many cases are wealthy businessmen, doctors and lawyers, are allowed to get away with it, then the level of anger will go up several notches.

A NY Times article describes Greek tax dodging as a way of life.

"How Greece ended up with this state of affairs is a matter of debate here. Some attribute it to Greece’s long history under Turkish occupation, when Greeks got used to seeing the government as an enemy. Others point out that, classical history aside, Greece is actually a relatively young democracy."

Greek Wealth Is Everywhere but Tax Forms - NYTimes.com

So we've got Greek attitudes towards taxes (inherited from Turkey) meeting up with the EU-style social compact (influenced by the early manorial system flipped around into the welfare state) meeting Wall Street-style capitalism (developed within a population whose ancestors fled authoritarianism and over-regulation and set up shop in a culture also influenced with a dash of Puritanism).
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Old 05-08-2010, 07:46 PM   #29
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Samclem and REWahoo:
The reason that the Goldman Sachs Greek Debt deal is fraudulent, is because Goldman Sachs helped/offered/enabled Greece to hide it's debts, so it could enter the E.U. In exchange, Goldman got all landing rights fees at their airports and such. Furthermore, Goldman shorted the Greek debt using derivatives, so they would win either way, just the way they did with the U.S. housing market and they are now facing criminal charges.

It would be the same as if you were trying to get a home loan, but your debt to asset ratio was too high, so I offered to take on and hide part of your debt, so you could qualify for the loan, charged you lot's of interest with a big balloon payment, and got to rent out your backyard pool on the weekends if you couldn't pay me back.

Because of our deal, you got the home, and everything was cool until you lost your job (recession) and couldn't make the payments. You ask me if you can re-finance the debt and maybe lower the outstanding balance, and I (Goldman Sachs) tell you I want all the money and I want it now. The bank (E.U.) discovers that you were hiding your debt from them and is pissed. But wait it get's worse.

Your wife and kids (the Greek people) had no idea that you entered into this horrible deal with me, and now discover that they can no longer use their pool, and may have to rent out a couple of their bedrooms as well to payoff some stranger - and of course they start yelling, screaming, and throwing dishes at you (riots in the streets).

I'm a former banker. Believe me when I tell you that what is happening in Greece, Greek workers being forced to give up their retirements to pay back Wall Street, is going to happen in the U.S. Again, it's already underway with the Wall Street/Congress/Obama axis of evil Budget Deficit Commission. Something every American should be trying to stop. I'm non-partisan. Both parties and the president are corrupt.

samclem: You are right, the American people will get what they deserve, ignorance is no defense. However, in defense of American and Greek workers, they are purposefully being kept ignorant. The financial and mainstream media works for Wall Street. Anyone who says anything counter to the spin being promulgated by Wall Street is labeled a crackpot conspiracy theorist - REWahoo I'm talking to you. And regarding your article about Greek corruption and samclem calling the Goldman Greek deals legal - Wall Street spent $350 million last year legally bribing our politicians - it's called "lobbying".

I saw the global economic collapse coming two year before it occurred. I tried warning everyone, I wrote about it on my blog, I told my sister to sell her house. I was laughed at by everyone. I also called the stock market bottom on my blog two weeks before it happened and told my friend to buy bank stocks. He ignored me. I could have made big money, shorting the stock market, the kind you read about, but it would have required robbing your 401k's and retirement funds, something my consience would not allow. Yes, I can provide links to my blog articles, but I'm not here to sell myself, only to help others.

Sorry for the long post and Happy Mothers Day to all the ER Mothers on this board.
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Old 05-08-2010, 08:09 PM   #30
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Anyone who says anything counter to the spin being promulgated by Wall Street is labeled a crackpot conspiracy theorist - REWahoo I'm talking to you.
Thanks for alerting me else I may have thought you were talking to yourself.

Kidding aside, I don't see where I made any inference you were a "crackpot conspiracy theorist", I merely asked for something other than your own opinion to back up your statements. I truly am attempting to keep an open mind as to whether you are a (self-described) crackpot or a perceptive genius when it comes to dissecting the Greek financial crisis. Links to reputable sources would be a help, but I suppose that will be difficult since you've told us "The financial and mainstream media works for Wall Street." How about some not-so-mainstream reputable sources? Any you can cite that agree with your assessment?

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I saw the global economic collapse coming two year before it occurred. I tried warning everyone, I wrote about it on my blog, I told my sister to sell her house. I was laughed at by everyone. I also called the stock market bottom on my blog two weeks before it happened and told my friend to buy bank stocks. He ignored me. I could have made big money, shorting the stock market, the kind you read about, but it would have required robbing your 401k's and retirement funds, something my consience would not allow. Yes, I can provide links to my blog articles, but I'm not here to sell myself, only to help others.
This sort of rhetoric doesn't bode well in defending your "I'm not a crackpot" status.

EDIT: Please note my comment does not agree or disagree with the accuracy of your quoted statement. My comment is intended to point out the tone in your message which says, "I know what's really happening and no one will listen". That may be true but I feel reasonably certain it will take more than your lone voice to be convincing to most of those reading this forum.
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Old 05-08-2010, 08:47 PM   #31
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Here is an article saying the Greeks blame their political system, not Wall Street:

Hey, that's just like what Chicago and the Democratic Machine have done to the State of Illinois! Cool...we have something in common.
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Old 05-08-2010, 09:02 PM   #32
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GS had no requirement to report anything to the EU concerning their transactions with Greece (which were sales, not loans, technically, right?). Did the EU really investigate the Greek finances, performing true "due diligence" or did they see what was politically expedient? Here's another example of politics getting in the way of an objective appraisal of a situation, and why the market deserves more trust than political pronouncements. If we want to know the real odds of a Greek default, look at the interest rates on Greek bonds or the cost for default swaps.

I've heard from many people who claim to have predicted the magnitude and timing of a big financial event (the runup in gold prices, the bursting of the housing bubble, etc). I marvel that these folks aren't rolling in dough, since highly-leveraged legal bets can easily be made in all these areas, and even a thousand dollars could be turned into millions if one was sure of the outcome. Usually it turns out these folks have an amazing record, having predicted 2000 of the last 2 events.
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Old 05-08-2010, 09:47 PM   #33
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I'm the first to admit that I'm a "the glass is half empty" kind of guy but the only reason I'm not retired now is that I just can't make sense of universal fiat currencies all over the world. I've seen first hand what inflation, currency deprecations and political instability can suddenly do to the best laid plans of mice and men....... I wish that I could just buy into the religious feeling that some how the US is totally immune to the laws of economics that effect the rest of the world but I just can't. Our Debt to GDP is around 85 % is is rapidly increasing. Greece is 115% and they are in chaos . That is only a 30 point spread... I hope I am wrong, but I just don't see that much of a buffer between the situation they are in and where we are.

Hang on and hope.
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Old 05-08-2010, 09:47 PM   #34
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Hi REWahoo:
You wrote "Can you link a source or two to validate this conspiracy?" I gave you two mainstream media links to back-up what I wrote. There are plenty of non mainstream media voices, former bankers and Wall Street types like myself, who warned and are warning people. Go to youtube and look up Peter Schiff, Max Keiser, Jim Rogers, Nouriel Roubini, Michael Lewis and the list goes on.

The part of my post, where I claim to have predicted the global economic collapse and subsequent stock market bottom, which prompted you to write "This sort of rhetoric doesn't bode well in defending your "I'm not a crackpot" status.", can be backed up as well with links.

However, I am reluctant to provide those links, because I own a retirement planning company that helps people retire early, and because I respect the forum. I am not here to sell myself, or defend myself, but to honestly help others on the forum achieve an early retirement. If you really really want the links I'll give them to you.

As I wrote in my earlier post, I am a former banker with degrees in economics, marketing, and business administration, not a crackpot conspiracy theorist. I understand what is going on in Greece, Europe, and what is happening in America. I also understand and respect your challenging my assertions.

My motivation for writing what I wrote, is to explain what is going on behind the Wall Street owned media spin, to try and stop the unnecessary and counter productive self flagellation taking place by American and Greek workers, and to try and warn my fellow Americans about the currently active attempt by Wall Street and Washington to rob their retirements. I'm one of the good guys.
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Old 05-08-2010, 10:06 PM   #35
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If you really really want the links I'll give them to you.
Not necessary as I have read some of your blog entries and posting links here would not be in keeping with the forum rules. I have no intent to get you in trouble with our crack moderation team.

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My motivation for writing what I wrote, is to explain what is going on behind the Wall Street owned media spin, to try and stop the unnecessary and counter productive self flagellation taking place by American and Greek workers, and to try and warn my fellow Americans about the currently active attempt by Wall Street and Washington to rob their retirements.
I'm not sure I see much self-flagellation taking place in either country. What I do observe is the desire of American and Greek workers to flagellate Wall Street bankers and our political leaders. Seriously flagellate.
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I'm one of the good guys.
I'll take your word on it.
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Old 05-08-2010, 10:11 PM   #36
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I hope I am wrong, but I just don't see that much of a buffer between the situation they are in and where we are.
At least one big difference: There are nations and entities with enough resources and motivation to pull Greece out of the ditch--maybe. There's no one big enough to pull the US out of the ditch, nor would there be much motivation from (most) other nations to do so. There will be no bailout for the US.
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Old 05-08-2010, 10:41 PM   #37
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.... I could have made big money, shorting the stock market, the kind you read about, but it would have required robbing your 401k's and retirement funds, something my consience would not allow....
You could have robbed my 401K and retirement funds? What?
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Old 05-08-2010, 11:59 PM   #38
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Samclem and REWahoo:
It would be the same as if you were trying to get a home loan, but your debt to asset ratio was too high, so I offered to take on and hide part of your debt, so you could qualify for the loan, charged you lot's of interest with a big balloon payment, and got to rent out your backyard pool on the weekends if you couldn't pay me back.

Because of our deal, you got the home, and everything was cool until you lost your job (recession) and couldn't make the payments. You ask me if you can re-finance the debt and maybe lower the outstanding balance, and I (Goldman Sachs) tell you I want all the money and I want it now. The bank (E.U.) discovers that you were hiding your debt from them and is pissed. But wait it get's worse.

Your wife and kids (the Greek people) had no idea that you entered into this horrible deal with me, and now discover that they can no longer use their pool, and may have to rent out a couple of their bedrooms as well to payoff some stranger - and of course they start yelling, screaming, and throwing dishes at you (riots in the streets).

Sorry for the long post and Happy Mothers Day to all the ER Mothers on this board.
I agree that GS isn't a "nice" company and often go right up to the line of what is legal. However, the problems with your analogy are that the Greek Government is a sovereign they get to decide what is "legal" or not. GS was acting like a lawyer or a banker,who's client ask them to skirt a law. You can complain that it isn't ethical but to a large extent in both case the mortage and the Greeks is their own doing. The simple rule is don't borrow more money than you can afford to pay back. The difference between GS and most other banks is they were smart enough to recognize that their spendthrift clients weren't going to pay back them back and protected themselves. Frankly if the rest of the financial industry had been 1/2 as smart as GS the crisis would have been mostly averted.
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Old 05-09-2010, 12:33 AM   #39
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Samclem and REWahoo:
The reason that the Goldman Sachs Greek Debt deal is fraudulent, is because Goldman Sachs helped/offered/enabled Greece to hide it's debts, so it could enter the E.U. In exchange, Goldman got all landing rights fees at their airports and such. Furthermore, Goldman shorted the Greek debt using derivatives, so they would win either way, just the way they did with the U.S. housing market and they are now facing criminal charges.
Your accusation of GS being the cause of the Greek financial troubles is at odds with the record of two centuries of Latin American, Eastern European, and African governments repudiating their debts for one well-intentioned reason or another. I remember how we used to make fun of the big American Wall Street bankers who'd rush to sell bonds in those countries, only to lose their shirts.

Was GS opportunistic? Unethical? Sure. But fraudulent? Won't stand up in a court of law.

Apparently the Greek government isn't capable of running the country either.
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Old 05-09-2010, 09:30 AM   #40
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....
I could have made big money, shorting the stock market, the kind you read about, but it would have required robbing your 401k's and retirement funds, something my consience would not allow. Yes, I can provide links to my blog articles, but I'm not here to sell myself, only to help others.

Sorry for the long post....
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You could have robbed my 401K and retirement funds? What?
Yeah, what? Phew!--I had a Keogh Plan instead of a 401k. nm, what?!! You could have robbed my retirement funds.

"Long post"! It reads more like a blog. GR, this is a discussion board and you may be pleased to note that you have some unfinished business over on your introductory thread:

Hi, I'm Back and I'm Green
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