Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 05-09-2010, 10:01 AM   #41
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
IndependentlyPoor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Austin
Posts: 1,142
Quote:
Originally Posted by clifp View Post
The difference between GS and most other banks is they were smart enough to recognize that their spendthrift clients weren't going to pay back them back and protected themselves. Frankly if the rest of the financial industry had been 1/2 as smart as GS the crisis would have been mostly averted.
I don't know if this would have averted the crisis or not, but I do know what would have: regulations that make it impossible for an investment bank to make billion dollar loans to spendthrift clients who aren't going to pay them back, and then transfer the risk to others via derivatives.
Such practices may be "smart" for GS, but when they have the potential for destroying the world economy, they should be prohibited.
__________________

__________________
Start by admitting
from cradle to tomb
it isn't that long a stay.
IndependentlyPoor is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 05-09-2010, 10:12 AM   #42
Moderator Emeritus
CuppaJoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: At The Cafe
Posts: 6,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by IndependentlyPoor View Post
I don't know if this would have averted the crisis or not, but I do know what would have: regulations that make it impossible for an investment bank to make billion dollar loans to spendthrift clients who aren't going to pay them back, and then transfer the risk to others via derivatives.
Such practices may be "smart" for GS, but when they have the potential for destroying the world economy, they should be prohibited.
Interesting GS is in the same city as my former landlord who did this with apt. bldgs. It is perversely interesting and very sad to see his signs come off of buildings, he has lost or sold over a hundred of them since this crisis began. He had owned an S&L in the ‘80s that was bailed out. If we can watch people like him, we won’t need a crystal ball?
__________________

__________________
CuppaJoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2010, 03:37 PM   #43
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
In collectivist societies and welfare states, the government takes a huge role in setting wages and working conditions, setting prices for various commodities (often foods, but frequently gasoline, etc) and in deciding who gets what--taking from some people to redistribute to others. Under a system like this, the government has placed itself (rather than the market and supply/demand) in the position of determining what "fair" prices/wages are. Under such a system, it is perfectly rational for people to take to the streets and demand higher wages or lower bread prices, because the government (as the determining authority) has to be pressured to change their policies. Country-wide work stoppages and protests are common. Under a market-based system, taking to the streets to get a raise or get lower prices doesn't occur to most folks--it doesn't make sense, as the government has, in general, not placed itself in the position of determining these things.

As our own government moves to place itself in the position of ultimate arbiter of "who has enough" and what the "fair" price for various products and services should be, we should be aware that this will justify more public demonstrations and possibly civil unrest as people try to influence these policies.
Without governments there are no meaningful markets. Anyone who thinks otherwise should go to Afghanistan and go into business. There is no government there and you can have a true free market, controlled only by killing. Only governments can guarantee safety and property and law. The government charges fees for such services. In a democratic government the people, the "owners" of the government, determine how to spend the fees. Whether a society is a welfare state has nothing at all to do with the state of the market. Germany is a welfare state. Markets work very well in some areas, and badly in others.
The great depression was created by the market economy. Exactly what mix of market and social control produce both the maximum quantity and fairest distribution of goods and services is unknown.
__________________
Emeritus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2010, 03:55 PM   #44
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by EveryLady View Post
So we've got Greek attitudes towards taxes (inherited from Turkey) meeting up with the EU-style social compact (influenced by the early manorial system flipped around into the welfare state) meeting Wall Street-style capitalism (developed within a population whose ancestors fled authoritarianism and over-regulation and set up shop in a culture also influenced with a dash of Puritanism).
Those ancestors set up a heavily regulated state. They just wanted to oppress anyone who disagreed with them. Ever read details of the witch trials?
The USA has always been a heavily regulated state. Any nation that allowed one person to buy and sell another is a heavily regulated state. No European country had an equivalent of the Comstock act. I do agree that the extremely wealthy have bought enough politicians to exempt themselves from regulation.
__________________
Emeritus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2010, 06:11 PM   #45
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
growing_older's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,608
Quote:
What everyone on this board, particularly this board should be aware of, is that Greek workers are being forced to give up their retirements to pay back Goldman Sachs. The same thing is going to happen in the U.S.
Okay, I understand you are warning us that many of the same forces that hurt Greece so badly could also hurt the US. If this is so, what are you suggesting that we do? Withdraw our retirement funds and stuff them in mattresses? Invest in gold, guns and seed corn? Work twice as hard and save twice as much so we'll have some left? What?
__________________
growing_older is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2010, 07:41 PM   #46
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emeritus View Post
Exactly what mix of market and social control produce both the maximum quantity and fairest distribution of goods and services is unknown.
Nope; it depends only on viewpoint. Mostly, people want to take from others, and have more for themselves.

Politicians play this with a twist. They take from about half of us, and give to a defined and ever larger set of "others" who have as their function producing votes. Then politicians open their private businesses of selling influence to wealthy donors. This not only helps get them re-elected but it also produces lots of lifestyle perks and even ready cash for politicos with a lot of influence to sell.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2010, 07:41 PM   #47
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 886
What we face in the USA is higher taxes , whomever we elect, or we will alternatively have a huge currency devaluation. Unlike Greece, our foreign debt is very manageable. Unlike many countries the USA actually accounts in part for its social security debt by issuing bonds to itself.
Paying for social security in the future will demand higher taxes, or lower payments.
__________________
Emeritus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2010, 07:46 PM   #48
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
Nope; it depends only on viewpoint. Mostly, people want to take from others, and have more for themselves.

Politicians play this with a twist. They take from about half of us, and give to a defined and ever larger set of "others" who have as their function producing votes. Then politicians open their private businesses of selling influence to wealthy donors. This not only helps get them re-elected but it also produces lots of lifestyle perks and even ready cash for politicos with a lot of influence to sell.
Ha
Actually they need money in the first place to buy the votes (AKA campaign contributions) , so they take from all of us and give it to those who will give them money, directly or indirectly. (you may mean this by "private business" )
__________________
Emeritus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2010, 04:21 AM   #49
Dryer sheet wannabe
Basenji's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emeritus View Post
Actually they need money in the first place to buy the votes (AKA campaign contributions) , so they take from all of us and give it to those who will give them money, directly or indirectly. (you may mean this by "private business" )
Lobbying has a spectacular return on investment -- 22,000% on one tax bill, according to a U of Kansas study:
KU News - Tax lobbying provides 22,000 percent return to firms, KU researchers find
__________________
Basenji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2010, 07:18 AM   #50
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Raise your hand if you are now expecting a succession of sales pitches from Green TinfoilHat...
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2010, 08:32 AM   #51
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
IndependentlyPoor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Austin
Posts: 1,142
Quote:
Originally Posted by growing_older View Post
Okay, I understand you are warning us that many of the same forces that hurt Greece so badly could also hurt the US. If this is so, what are you suggesting that we do? Withdraw our retirement funds and stuff them in mattresses? Invest in gold, guns and seed corn? Work twice as hard and save twice as much so we'll have some left? What?
Let me give that a try.
How about we stop appointing Goldman Sachs executives to run the agencies that are supposed to regulate them?

And make it illegal to segue from, say treasury secretary, to G.S. sinecure?

Sorry, I guess this put me in a bad mood:
Goldman Sachs Has First Perfect Quarter With Zero Trading Loss - Bloomberg.com
__________________
Start by admitting
from cradle to tomb
it isn't that long a stay.
IndependentlyPoor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2010, 08:54 AM   #52
Moderator Emeritus
CuppaJoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: At The Cafe
Posts: 6,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345 View Post
Raise your hand if you are now expecting a succession of sales pitches from Green TinfoilHat...
__________________
CuppaJoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2010, 08:58 AM   #53
Moderator Emeritus
Bestwifeever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,373
Greenie doesn't even need us to actually sign up with him per his sales pitches--apparently Greenie already has his mitts on our 401ks and IRAs per his previous unexplained comment.
__________________

__________________
“Would you like an adventure now, or would you like to have your tea first?” J.M. Barrie, Peter Pan
Bestwifeever is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
European Debt Crisis donheff FIRE and Money 7 04-28-2010 12:11 PM
29-year old very early retired european - what should i do NOW ? patrick01 Hi, I am... 24 08-04-2009 08:59 AM
Google European Center in Zurich Eagle43 Other topics 2 07-15-2008 09:05 AM
european stocks and the dollar mathjak107 FIRE and Money 2 12-12-2006 06:47 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:01 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.