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Old 04-23-2012, 05:41 PM   #141
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For those of you who get channel 11 in Chicago (WTTW) there is a show called Chicago Tonight. There will be Union representatives and the Civic Committee of the Commercial Club of Chicago debating the issue at hand. Ought to be fun...
Thanks......
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Old 04-23-2012, 05:59 PM   #142
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Nice self serving spin thinly disguised as congrats...
Midpack! How could you go there? Sheeesh!

I think it's fairly common knowledge that despite the fact DW and I are roughly 50/50 - pension/FIRE portfolio, I'm intrigued and impressed by the folks who were able to put together substantial assets and retire early on their portfolio alone. Threads where investment tactics designed to make a FIRE portfolio support a desired lifestyle for some X number of years are my favorite but I don't always feel qualified to participate since we have SS and a pension check as roughly 50% of our annual spend.

Really, your ability to have a lump sum distribution of a 19 year frozen pension be only a tiny portion of your portfolio is impressive. And being RE'd without pension or SS more so.
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Old 04-23-2012, 06:29 PM   #143
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Federal law generally doesn't allow the takeaway of vested benefits for service already accrued (absent bankruptcy). So "losing" it usually means freezing it -- except for people who weren't vested yet. At my Megacorp the pension vesting period was 10 years (I worked there for 11.5 so I barely made it). Someone who worked there for 9 years could have nothing to show for it. And if they passed on other more lucrative opportunities in the meantime because they wanted the pension, oops -- too bad.

My only point is that people using terms like 'misery loves company" and calling others "jealous" to flippantly dismiss people with contrary feelings and opinions are making no effort to try to understand why people feel that way. When you utterly dismiss them like that, good luck gaining any of their support.
Don't know if someone has addressed this or not...

But FWIR, if they freeze a plan everybody is vested... It was very early in my career, but my company froze their plan with me having one year.... I got a check for $700... my benefits if I had been vested...
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Old 04-23-2012, 07:23 PM   #144
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All I will say... is that it is easy to have opinions when it's not your pension that is going to be affected.
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Old 04-23-2012, 07:38 PM   #145
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All I will say... is that it is easy to have opinions when it's not your pension that is going to be affected.
Awww, c'mon. I'm sure you could say more.


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Old 04-23-2012, 08:06 PM   #146
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For those of you who get channel 11 in Chicago (WTTW) there is a show called Chicago Tonight. There will be Union representatives and the Civic Committee of the Commercial Club of Chicago debating the issue at hand. Ought to be fun...
Thanks, caught it but was not able to give it my full attention.

The guy from the 'Commercial Club' seemed to think it was what was needed. The Union guy thought it stank, but I never heard what he thought should be done - did he make suggestions?

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Old 04-23-2012, 09:38 PM   #147
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The union guy was disappointed that they were not part of the working group and going forward would like to be part of the representation to work on coming to some middle ground that will be acceptable to all parties.
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:36 AM   #148
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All I will say... is that it is easy to have opinions when it's not your pension that is going to be affected.

Well, since my pension is just my investment portfolio, the inevitable higher taxes is very much going to impact my "Self Pension". I could turn this around and say its easy to want no change since you have yours....

Im not poking at you specificialloy, but most public pensions were unsustainable anyway. Im not looking to hurt folks that are retired, but it would be nice if there were some balance to this so i dont get taken to the cleaners. We already jacked up the taxes in a big way here in illinois, and it was blown though in one year with an even larger deficit.

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Old 04-24-2012, 06:52 AM   #149
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Well, since my pension is just my investment portfolio, the inevitable higher taxes is very much going to impact my "Self Pension". I could turn this around and say its easy to want no change since you have yours....

Im not poking at you specificialloy, but most public pensions were unsustainable anyway. Im not looking to hurt folks that are retired, but it would be nice if there were some balance to this so i dont get taken to the cleaners. We already jacked up the taxes in a big way here in illinois, and it was blown though in one year with an even larger deficit.

Steel
Don't forget Illinois had one of the lowest tax rates before then. Even at a flat across the board 5% it is still comparatively low.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:56 AM   #150
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Well, since my pension is just my investment portfolio, the inevitable higher taxes is very much going to impact my "Self Pension". I could turn this around and say its easy to want no change since you have yours....

Im not poking at you specificialloy, but most public pensions were unsustainable anyway. Im not looking to hurt folks that are retired, but it would be nice if there were some balance to this so i dont get taken to the cleaners. We already jacked up the taxes in a big way here in illinois, and it was blown though in one year with an even larger deficit.

Steel
+1

Also, since DD is in TRS, I'd sure like to see changes so that the system is sustainable and there is something for her when she retires. Does that make me selfish?

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The union guy was disappointed that they were not part of the working group and going forward would like to be part of the representation to work on coming to some middle ground that will be acceptable to all parties.

Thanks, I did catch that part - did he relay any suggestions on the show?

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Old 04-24-2012, 06:59 AM   #151
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[QUOTE=Ron0731;1188024]All I will say... is that it is easy to have opinions when it's not your pension that is going to be affected.[/QUOTE Your stats show your retirement is in 2012 sometime. You will probably be all right by the time they get this thing up and running.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:10 AM   #152
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Well put. There is no doubt in mind that vast majority of folks private system pension was frozen and/or converted into a defined contribution system got hosed.
Hosed is right. Read the book "Retirement Heist" about how private companies legally drained pension funds, and then later cried that they were underfunded.

I have seen no move to reform these wrongs. Just as i have seen no significant move to reform the 'modernizations' that allowed the banking crisis which drove our economy over a cliff.

We have the best government money can buy.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:17 AM   #153
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ERD50, I didn't hear the Union guy come up with any suggestions other than they just want to be part of the representation. A lot of his retort was about the pension holidays or missed payments by Springfield into the funds and how the employees made all their payments and the unfairness now for this to be solely on the backs of the employees.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:19 AM   #154
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Hosed is right. Read the book "Retirement Heist" about how private companies legally drained pension funds, and then later cried that they were underfunded.

I have seen no move to reform these wrongs. Just as i have seen no significant move to reform the 'modernizations' that allowed the banking crisis which drove our economy over a cliff.

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Old 04-24-2012, 07:22 AM   #155
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Keeping this on topic will help it avoid the same fate as previous threads.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:32 AM   #156
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Don't forget Illinois had one of the lowest tax rates before then. Even at a flat across the board 5% it is still comparatively low.
Well, Im not sure this is true. But even if it is, I saw just last week that we are in the top 5 states for overall taxes, and its no doubt it will get even higher over the next few year. I would leave the state, but DW is rooted here so strongly that thats not realistic in the near term.

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Old 04-24-2012, 07:38 AM   #157
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Well, Im not sure this is true. But even if it is, I saw just last week that we are in the top 5 states for overall taxes, and its no doubt it will get even higher over the next few year. I would leave the state, but DW is rooted here so strongly that thats not realistic in the near term.

Steel
While there is no uniform way to measure and compare tax rates among states, most sources I have seen put Illinois in the middle for individual income tax.

Edit: This link places Illinois at 13th at 10% vs the national average of 9.8% http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/336.html
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:43 AM   #158
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but most public pensions were unsustainable anyway.

Steel
I don’t think it’s so much an issue of the public pensions themselves being unsustainable, as much as it is that the level of incompetence and greed on the part of the politicians, and in some cases labor, is unsustainable.
Not so long ago, many cities’ pensions were 90% - 100% funded and during the boom years these cities would contribute nothing to the funds as the increases on the investments more than covered their obligations. As things slowed, and the yearly audit showed that their pension obligations increased, in many cases they simply provided alternate actuarial reviews, with overly optimistic assumptions, to reduce or eliminate their required contributions. I think that started us on the slippery slope.
The employees, on the other hand, continued to contribute their percentage, in good times and bad.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:54 AM   #159
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I don’t think it’s so much an issue of the public pensions themselves being unsustainable, as much as it is that the level of incompetence and greed on the part of the politicians, and in some cases labor, is unsustainable.
Not so long ago, many cities’ pensions were 90% - 100% funded and during the boom years these cities would contribute nothing to the funds as the increases on the investments more than covered their obligations. As things slowed, and the yearly audit showed that their pension obligations increased, in many cases they simply provided alternate actuarial reviews, with overly optimistic assumptions, to reduce or eliminate their required contributions. I think that started us on the slippery slope.
The employees, on the other hand, continued to contribute their percentage, in good times and bad.
I fully agree with this. This is particularly true in Illinois, the only question is who pays for this graft. I am reluctant to do so, not because I wish ill on the people who are impacted but simply because I did not mis manage it, did not vote for this nonsense and dont want to work longer to make it good. Having lived here for 16 years and 5 years in CA, I have reached the end of my rope on government graft.

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Old 04-24-2012, 07:57 AM   #160
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Hosed is right. Read the book "Retirement Heist" about how private companies legally drained pension funds, and then later cried that they were underfunded. ...
Very big difference - no comparison at all. Those private companies were still under the watch of the PBGC and paid their insurance premiums. They had to keep them funded to the levels the PBGC dictated, or terminate their plan. They can't terminate their plan w/o declaring bankruptcy (or maybe some other drastic measure). If the plan is terminated, the PBGC takes over and pensions were paid (up to the cap). No taxpayer dollars were used.


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ERD50, I didn't hear the Union guy come up with any suggestions other than they just want to be part of the representation. A lot of his retort was about the pension holidays or missed payments by Springfield into the funds and how the employees made all their payments and the unfairness now for this to be solely on the backs of the employees.
Well, clearly it was unfair that the State did not make the contributions they were supposed to make. But I throw that back to the Union leaders - where were you guys when IL didn't make their payments? Were you calling for changes so that the pension system would remain viable? It seems clear that the Union leaders were not interested in IL paying either. Because that would have required raising taxes way back then, and that would have raised attention to just how expensive these pensions are, and taxpayers would question (like they are now) why are we paying for pensions that are in general more generous than private pensions? The Union leaders did not want those Qs coming up, and they knew we had the Constitutional requirement that earned pension benefits must be paid, so they were happy to sweep it under the rug, and kick the can down the road for the next guy. So I find it far too convenient for the Union guys to now say 'it wasn't our fault, don't ask us to pay'.

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