Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 04-23-2012, 06:41 PM   #141
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
youbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 9,965
Quote:
Originally Posted by ripper1 View Post
For those of you who get channel 11 in Chicago (WTTW) there is a show called Chicago Tonight. There will be Union representatives and the Civic Committee of the Commercial Club of Chicago debating the issue at hand. Ought to be fun...
Thanks......
__________________

__________________
"I wasn't born blue blood. I was born blue-collar." John Wort Hannam
youbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 04-23-2012, 06:59 PM   #142
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
youbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 9,965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
Nice self serving spin thinly disguised as congrats...
Midpack! How could you go there? Sheeesh!

I think it's fairly common knowledge that despite the fact DW and I are roughly 50/50 - pension/FIRE portfolio, I'm intrigued and impressed by the folks who were able to put together substantial assets and retire early on their portfolio alone. Threads where investment tactics designed to make a FIRE portfolio support a desired lifestyle for some X number of years are my favorite but I don't always feel qualified to participate since we have SS and a pension check as roughly 50% of our annual spend.

Really, your ability to have a lump sum distribution of a 19 year frozen pension be only a tiny portion of your portfolio is impressive. And being RE'd without pension or SS more so.
__________________

__________________
"I wasn't born blue blood. I was born blue-collar." John Wort Hannam
youbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2012, 07:29 PM   #143
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post
Federal law generally doesn't allow the takeaway of vested benefits for service already accrued (absent bankruptcy). So "losing" it usually means freezing it -- except for people who weren't vested yet. At my Megacorp the pension vesting period was 10 years (I worked there for 11.5 so I barely made it). Someone who worked there for 9 years could have nothing to show for it. And if they passed on other more lucrative opportunities in the meantime because they wanted the pension, oops -- too bad.

My only point is that people using terms like 'misery loves company" and calling others "jealous" to flippantly dismiss people with contrary feelings and opinions are making no effort to try to understand why people feel that way. When you utterly dismiss them like that, good luck gaining any of their support.
Don't know if someone has addressed this or not...

But FWIR, if they freeze a plan everybody is vested... It was very early in my career, but my company froze their plan with me having one year.... I got a check for $700... my benefits if I had been vested...
__________________
Texas Proud is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2012, 08:23 PM   #144
Dryer sheet wannabe
Ron0731's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Springfield Illinois
Posts: 23
All I will say... is that it is easy to have opinions when it's not your pension that is going to be affected.
__________________
Ron0731 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2012, 08:38 PM   #145
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron0731 View Post
All I will say... is that it is easy to have opinions when it's not your pension that is going to be affected.
Awww, c'mon. I'm sure you could say more.


-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2012, 09:06 PM   #146
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,265
Quote:
Originally Posted by ripper1 View Post
For those of you who get channel 11 in Chicago (WTTW) there is a show called Chicago Tonight. There will be Union representatives and the Civic Committee of the Commercial Club of Chicago debating the issue at hand. Ought to be fun...
Thanks, caught it but was not able to give it my full attention.

The guy from the 'Commercial Club' seemed to think it was what was needed. The Union guy thought it stank, but I never heard what he thought should be done - did he make suggestions?

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2012, 10:38 PM   #147
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chicago
Posts: 867
The union guy was disappointed that they were not part of the working group and going forward would like to be part of the representation to work on coming to some middle ground that will be acceptable to all parties.
__________________
ripper1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 06:36 AM   #148
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Oswego
Posts: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron0731 View Post
All I will say... is that it is easy to have opinions when it's not your pension that is going to be affected.

Well, since my pension is just my investment portfolio, the inevitable higher taxes is very much going to impact my "Self Pension". I could turn this around and say its easy to want no change since you have yours....

Im not poking at you specificialloy, but most public pensions were unsustainable anyway. Im not looking to hurt folks that are retired, but it would be nice if there were some balance to this so i dont get taken to the cleaners. We already jacked up the taxes in a big way here in illinois, and it was blown though in one year with an even larger deficit.

Steel
__________________
Steel Rain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 07:52 AM   #149
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chicago
Posts: 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel Rain View Post
Well, since my pension is just my investment portfolio, the inevitable higher taxes is very much going to impact my "Self Pension". I could turn this around and say its easy to want no change since you have yours....

Im not poking at you specificialloy, but most public pensions were unsustainable anyway. Im not looking to hurt folks that are retired, but it would be nice if there were some balance to this so i dont get taken to the cleaners. We already jacked up the taxes in a big way here in illinois, and it was blown though in one year with an even larger deficit.

Steel
Don't forget Illinois had one of the lowest tax rates before then. Even at a flat across the board 5% it is still comparatively low.
__________________
ripper1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 07:56 AM   #150
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel Rain View Post
Well, since my pension is just my investment portfolio, the inevitable higher taxes is very much going to impact my "Self Pension". I could turn this around and say its easy to want no change since you have yours....

Im not poking at you specificialloy, but most public pensions were unsustainable anyway. Im not looking to hurt folks that are retired, but it would be nice if there were some balance to this so i dont get taken to the cleaners. We already jacked up the taxes in a big way here in illinois, and it was blown though in one year with an even larger deficit.

Steel
+1

Also, since DD is in TRS, I'd sure like to see changes so that the system is sustainable and there is something for her when she retires. Does that make me selfish?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ripper1 View Post
The union guy was disappointed that they were not part of the working group and going forward would like to be part of the representation to work on coming to some middle ground that will be acceptable to all parties.

Thanks, I did catch that part - did he relay any suggestions on the show?

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 07:59 AM   #151
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chicago
Posts: 867
[QUOTE=Ron0731;1188024]All I will say... is that it is easy to have opinions when it's not your pension that is going to be affected.[/QUOTE Your stats show your retirement is in 2012 sometime. You will probably be all right by the time they get this thing up and running.
__________________
ripper1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 08:10 AM   #152
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Chuckanut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: West of the Mississippi
Posts: 6,324
Quote:
Originally Posted by clifp View Post
Well put. There is no doubt in mind that vast majority of folks private system pension was frozen and/or converted into a defined contribution system got hosed.
Hosed is right. Read the book "Retirement Heist" about how private companies legally drained pension funds, and then later cried that they were underfunded.

I have seen no move to reform these wrongs. Just as i have seen no significant move to reform the 'modernizations' that allowed the banking crisis which drove our economy over a cliff.

We have the best government money can buy.
__________________
The worst decisions are usually made in times of anger and impatience.
Chuckanut is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 08:17 AM   #153
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chicago
Posts: 867
ERD50, I didn't hear the Union guy come up with any suggestions other than they just want to be part of the representation. A lot of his retort was about the pension holidays or missed payments by Springfield into the funds and how the employees made all their payments and the unfairness now for this to be solely on the backs of the employees.
__________________
ripper1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 08:19 AM   #154
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chicago
Posts: 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckanut View Post
Hosed is right. Read the book "Retirement Heist" about how private companies legally drained pension funds, and then later cried that they were underfunded.

I have seen no move to reform these wrongs. Just as i have seen no significant move to reform the 'modernizations' that allowed the banking crisis which drove our economy over a cliff.

We have the best government money can buy.
Bought and paid for absolutely.
__________________
ripper1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 08:22 AM   #155
Moderator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rocky Inlets
Posts: 24,446
Keeping this on topic will help it avoid the same fate as previous threads.
__________________
MichaelB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 08:32 AM   #156
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Oswego
Posts: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by ripper1 View Post
Don't forget Illinois had one of the lowest tax rates before then. Even at a flat across the board 5% it is still comparatively low.
Well, Im not sure this is true. But even if it is, I saw just last week that we are in the top 5 states for overall taxes, and its no doubt it will get even higher over the next few year. I would leave the state, but DW is rooted here so strongly that thats not realistic in the near term.

Steel
__________________
Steel Rain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 08:38 AM   #157
Moderator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rocky Inlets
Posts: 24,446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel Rain View Post
Well, Im not sure this is true. But even if it is, I saw just last week that we are in the top 5 states for overall taxes, and its no doubt it will get even higher over the next few year. I would leave the state, but DW is rooted here so strongly that thats not realistic in the near term.

Steel
While there is no uniform way to measure and compare tax rates among states, most sources I have seen put Illinois in the middle for individual income tax.

Edit: This link places Illinois at 13th at 10% vs the national average of 9.8% http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/336.html
__________________
MichaelB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 08:43 AM   #158
Dryer sheet wannabe
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel Rain View Post
but most public pensions were unsustainable anyway.

Steel
I donít think itís so much an issue of the public pensions themselves being unsustainable, as much as it is that the level of incompetence and greed on the part of the politicians, and in some cases labor, is unsustainable.
Not so long ago, many citiesí pensions were 90% - 100% funded and during the boom years these cities would contribute nothing to the funds as the increases on the investments more than covered their obligations. As things slowed, and the yearly audit showed that their pension obligations increased, in many cases they simply provided alternate actuarial reviews, with overly optimistic assumptions, to reduce or eliminate their required contributions. I think that started us on the slippery slope.
The employees, on the other hand, continued to contribute their percentage, in good times and bad.
__________________
Flsail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 08:54 AM   #159
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Oswego
Posts: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flsail View Post
I donít think itís so much an issue of the public pensions themselves being unsustainable, as much as it is that the level of incompetence and greed on the part of the politicians, and in some cases labor, is unsustainable.
Not so long ago, many citiesí pensions were 90% - 100% funded and during the boom years these cities would contribute nothing to the funds as the increases on the investments more than covered their obligations. As things slowed, and the yearly audit showed that their pension obligations increased, in many cases they simply provided alternate actuarial reviews, with overly optimistic assumptions, to reduce or eliminate their required contributions. I think that started us on the slippery slope.
The employees, on the other hand, continued to contribute their percentage, in good times and bad.
I fully agree with this. This is particularly true in Illinois, the only question is who pays for this graft. I am reluctant to do so, not because I wish ill on the people who are impacted but simply because I did not mis manage it, did not vote for this nonsense and dont want to work longer to make it good. Having lived here for 16 years and 5 years in CA, I have reached the end of my rope on government graft.

Steel
__________________
Steel Rain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 08:57 AM   #160
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckanut View Post
Hosed is right. Read the book "Retirement Heist" about how private companies legally drained pension funds, and then later cried that they were underfunded. ...
Very big difference - no comparison at all. Those private companies were still under the watch of the PBGC and paid their insurance premiums. They had to keep them funded to the levels the PBGC dictated, or terminate their plan. They can't terminate their plan w/o declaring bankruptcy (or maybe some other drastic measure). If the plan is terminated, the PBGC takes over and pensions were paid (up to the cap). No taxpayer dollars were used.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ripper1 View Post
ERD50, I didn't hear the Union guy come up with any suggestions other than they just want to be part of the representation. A lot of his retort was about the pension holidays or missed payments by Springfield into the funds and how the employees made all their payments and the unfairness now for this to be solely on the backs of the employees.
Well, clearly it was unfair that the State did not make the contributions they were supposed to make. But I throw that back to the Union leaders - where were you guys when IL didn't make their payments? Were you calling for changes so that the pension system would remain viable? It seems clear that the Union leaders were not interested in IL paying either. Because that would have required raising taxes way back then, and that would have raised attention to just how expensive these pensions are, and taxpayers would question (like they are now) why are we paying for pensions that are in general more generous than private pensions? The Union leaders did not want those Qs coming up, and they knew we had the Constitutional requirement that earned pension benefits must be paid, so they were happy to sweep it under the rug, and kick the can down the road for the next guy. So I find it far too convenient for the Union guys to now say 'it wasn't our fault, don't ask us to pay'.

-ERD50
__________________

__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:09 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.