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Old 04-02-2010, 02:12 PM   #121
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No, I dont know. I didnt quote any returns. You did. I have no idea if those figures are correct or not, especially since the author already made one glaring mistake.

Where did you look up the returns for the Vanguard fund listed by budget year (ending in Sept)? I cant even find quarterly returns listed on Morningstar anymore.

The point of my original statement was that my pension fund is doing better than most others. Not that the advisros are geniuses. I have no idea why all pension funds dont just invest like most of us do and index everything. I'd be willing to bet that pension funds wouldnt be in anywhere near as bad shape as they are if they all just indexed everything in a standard 50/50 mix.
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Old 04-02-2010, 02:21 PM   #122
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Looks like Ive found some more selective comparison in the returns you listed. Vanguard 2030 started in mid 2006

2008
Dallas Police Pension returns....-24%
Vanguard Retirement 2030.......-32.9%

2007
Dallas Police Pension returns.....10.7%
Vanguard Retirment 2030..........7.5%
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Old 04-02-2010, 03:20 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by utrecht View Post
Where did you look up the returns for the Vanguard fund listed by budget year (ending in Sept)? I cant even find quarterly returns listed on Morningstar anymore.
I didn't find it pre-canned. I went to the Vanguard site for the fund and they list the quarterly returns. I just started with $100 and multiplied by the successive quarterly returns ending 12/08, 03/09, 06/09, and 09/09.

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Originally Posted by utrecht View Post
I'd be willing to bet that pension funds wouldnt be in anywhere near as bad shape as they are if they all just indexed everything in a standard 50/50 mix.
Agreed.
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Old 04-02-2010, 03:21 PM   #124
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Lets take it a bit farther:

2008
Dallas Police Pension....-24%
Vanguard 2025...........-30.05%
Vanguard 2030...........-32.9%
Vanguard 2035...........-34.66%

2007
Dallas Police Pension....10.7%
Vanguard 2025.............7.6%
Vanguard 2030............7.5%
vanguard 2035.............7.5%

2006
Dallas Police Pension.....16.8%
Vanguard 2025..............13.24%
Vanguard 2035.............15.2%

2005
Dallas Police Pension......10.3%
Vanguard 2025...............5.45%
Vanguard 2035..............6.3%

2004
Dallas police Pension.......14.77%
Vanguard 2025...............10.11%
Vanguard 2035...............11.95%

It looks like my pensions funds advisors beat the Vanguard geniuses hands down. At least in this short time span comparison. At least its a longer time frame than the one data point mentioned in the article you quoted.
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Old 04-02-2010, 03:24 PM   #125
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It looks like my pensions funds advisors beat the Vanguard geniuses hands down. At least in this short time span comparison. At least its a longer time frame than the one data point mentioned in the article you quoted.
That sounds great for you, it's extra money in the account if their performance keeps up.
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Old 04-02-2010, 04:59 PM   #126
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I'd be willing to bet that pension funds wouldnt be in anywhere near as bad shape as they are if they all just indexed everything in a standard 50/50 mix.
I think you're spot on here. Part of the problem is that fund managers have their hands tied when the political powers that be promise benefits that require an 8-9% return to remain solvent. Change the benefit formula to only require 6-7% over time and suddenly it's a LOT more sustainable long-term. And when they need a higher return, some of them start dabbling in derivatives and hedge funds and other leveraged garbage that isn't appropriate for a pension fund.
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Old 04-03-2010, 04:00 PM   #127
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Which, just to be clear, really means that you paid into it as an employee. Every cost that an employer pays to have an employee on the books (salary, health care premiums, SS taxes, Medicare taxes, unemployment insurance premiums, retirement costs, and PBGC premiums) is money that would have been paid to the employees directly in an unhindered labor market if these mandated programs were not in place.
In these times of "free money from . . . somewhere," it is worth repeating this.
Quite a lively non-political thread going on here!

What samclem said - I am in all three categories - I am a reservist in the US military and will not see any pension until I'm 60 - it is COLA'd and will be a moderate one due to the fact that I worked for a healthcare corporation for 14+ years - I am vested in their DB plan, although I will see ~$1250 non-COLA'd per month from them. They did have a 403B and matching on that and a 401A - I have assets in those. Additionally, I now work for myself and pay for *everything*. Most of my 'profit' goes to WLS as I'm working on setting up *many* streams of income for retirement - and for all the in-between times: case in point, time between when my husband retires on his pension and I receive my military one will be 10+ years; my private employee pension will start 5 years later - SS - well, let's just say if we get any of that based on what I see happening in our country right now financially, gravy!!! And then the taxable and deferred assets will need to be managed. I wouldn't say it's a whole lot of money, but the different streams have their own risks and cover the risks of the other streams (like asset allocation). We do wish to retire early, hence the lower risk tolerance, however, that's not to say something like that couldn't be done with a more traditional retirement age (although, I don't know if that's a good statement nowadays - my father is a university professor, coming on 70 and not thinking of retiring...my stepmother as well, a nurse practictioner who just got her PhD to ...teach! not thinking of retiring soon - many doctors I know still practice - as well as lawyers - looks like common denominator is a 'profession' in the traditional sense of the word - my husband thinks I won't stop my consulting business, just slow it down..we'll see)

As for rugs being pulled out from under you - oh, I've seen that happen many times - between different employers, the Air Force, SS (remember they changed the retirement age for that) - which says to me, the only thing that you can be is flexible AND take care of yourself as much as possible. Just because you have access to a pension doesn't mean it will be what you thought it was when you get it. I don't know that I would advocate like clifp what people should or shouldn't do, however, one should attempt to save more than 10% in general, pension or not (I aim for 30-50%). By LBYM and saving, you do have options...now to keep the damn grasshoppers from eating my personal savings....grrrrrrr
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index is not the way to go
Old 04-04-2010, 02:11 AM   #128
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index is not the way to go

Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post
I think you're spot on here. Part of the problem is that fund managers have their hands tied when the political powers that be promise benefits that require an 8-9% return to remain solvent. Change the benefit formula to only require 6-7% over time and suddenly it's a LOT more sustainable long-term. And when they need a higher return, some of them start dabbling in derivatives and hedge funds and other leveraged garbage that isn't appropriate for a pension fund.

While I agree with you about the problems with pension funds dabbling in
hedge funds, etc. I think it is worth noting that public pensions DO in the
long term outperform defined contribution plans. I personally would not
be comfortable with my pension plan throwing the money in an index
and walking away.

http://www.ncpers.org/Media/PageText...ies_TopTen.pdf

see page eleven for public pension investment performance and
administrative cost comparison.

BTW, currently only 11 states use an expected rate of return
in excess of 8% with 8.5% being the highest.

-LB
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Old 04-05-2010, 12:28 AM   #129
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It depends on the job man. If you're a government employee who will have a pension and drives a bus you've got a great gig, if you're an attorney maybe not so much.
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