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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-17-2006, 04:07 PM   #61
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

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Originally Posted by larry
When I left, employee contribution rates were averaging 3%.* Most employees were afraid of the stock market so you had 30-40 year olds putting 70-80% of their retirement savings in cash and bonds.*
I owe my investing insights to Jane Bryant Quinn.* She made reading about a stodgy subject interesting.
I owe my continuing interest in financials to the contributors to this board.
[geezer rant] Gosh, we've been complaining for years on this board alone that kids today just don't know enough about finances & investing.

Once again the Baby Boomers are going to fix everything. Only in this area the Slackers are going to look at the Boomers still plugging away at 40 hours/week in their eighties, heave a collective exclamation of "Holy crap!!" and give themselves (and the Echo Boomers) the financial education that we've deemed they're lacking.

I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords congratulate our future generations for learning from our sage Boomer example... [/geezer rant]
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-17-2006, 04:40 PM   #62
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

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The main purpose of the media is to deliver viewers to the advertisers, not to provide accurate, unbiased, in-depth analysis of the issues, whatever they may be. Since boomers are now nearing retirement, the screaming teasers are naturally: boomers can't retire!, you've been screwed!, look at this travesty!, etc.
That's it in a nutshell. The media is always looking for the next crisis. As noted by the polling on this site, few are expecting a significant portion from a pension and still are financial independent or working toward it. If a company isnt competitive like a GM or United, it is going to fold up and shrink and be replaced by a Southwest Airlines or a Toyota.
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-17-2006, 04:49 PM   #63
 
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

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Originally Posted by Maddy the Turbo Beagle


That's it in a nutshell. The media is always looking for the next crisis. As noted by the polling on this site, few are expecting a significant portion from a pension and still are financial independent or working toward it. If a company isnt competitive like a GM or United, it is going to fold up and shrink and be replaced by a Southwest Airlines or a Toyota.
Well, that is all fine and dandy. And granted most boomers and their ancesters did not save enough for retirement. So, like the story said they'll keep working.

What you have to keep in mind, though are the companies that made promises - contracts with employees, that they would have a pension. The companies underfunded the pension programs and over funded executive compensation. I say it is time to round up those executives and confiscate their personal assests to fund those pension programs! Or would all you Right Wing Nuts want the Taxpayers to fund the defaulting Pension Program?

The taxpayers already bailed out the Banking Guys in the S&L scandel to the tune of $500 Billion, yet the right wing is focused on the peanuts of illegal immigration and a few Welfare Cheats?

When is the Right Wing gonna wake up and do the math?
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-17-2006, 04:52 PM   #64
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

I think the writing is on the wall here. Within a few years, most of us will have been replaced by Chinese. I just keep stuffing the piggy bank, and hope maybe they'll give me a little extra as a parting gift...
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-17-2006, 04:53 PM   #65
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

I say we take all the money from the left wing liberal wacko's to fund pensions.

Taxes should be twice as high for liberals as for reasonable people.

CT should give all that fishing trip money to people in need rather than flapping his gums so much.
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-17-2006, 04:56 PM   #66
 
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

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Originally Posted by MasterBlaster
I say we take all the money from the left wing liberal wacko's to fund pensions.

Taxes should be twice as high for liberals as for reasonable people.

CT should give all that fishing trip money to people in need rather than flapping his gums so much.
Masterbaiter,

The only reason that you have any freedom at all is because of liberals. You'd still be kissing the boots of King George III, if it weren't for Liberals. - You guys blindly obey the rich and powerful, because you can't think for yourself!
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-17-2006, 04:59 PM   #67
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

Well maybe there's is a hint of truth to your last statement.

However that may be preferable to listening to your dribble.

What do you say you leave your bizarre views of the world at home where they belong and talk about the issue being discussed
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-17-2006, 05:06 PM   #68
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

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Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
Masterbaiter,

The only reason that you have any freedom at all is because of liberals. You'd still be kissing the boots of King George III, if it weren't for Liberals. - You guys blindly obey the rich and powerful, because you can't think for yourself!
Wow, I didn't know the Kennedy clan was around during the mighty revolution

Maybe it was Richard Gephardt that fought at Valley Forge.* I guess I was sleeping durin' history class
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-17-2006, 05:08 PM   #69
 
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

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Originally Posted by MasterBlaster
Well maybe there's is a hint of truth to your last statement.

However that may be preferable to listening to your dribble.

What do you say you leave your bizarre views of the world at home where they belong and talk about the issue being discussed
Since, I started this thread. My post was exactly on topic!
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-17-2006, 05:14 PM   #70
 
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

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Originally Posted by Papi
Wow, I didn't know the Kennedy clan was around during the mighty revolution

Maybe it was Richard Gephardt that fought at Valley Forge. I guess I was sleeping durin' history class
You were sleeping in history Class! The Liberals then were Jefferson and Washington. There was a very large 'conservative' movement back then that completely supported the status quo of the crown. It was not unamimous by far. They were very happy with rule by England! - They even told them what church to go to. Just like you cons today. Teach and have Christian Prayer in the schools!


Maybe you like to guess who headed the charge for civil rights, women's rights, a cleaner environment etc. etc.

You Cons have fought progress every step of the way!
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-17-2006, 05:18 PM   #71
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

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Originally Posted by MasterBlaster
I say we take all the money from the left wing liberal wacko's to fund pensions.
Please don't, I need mine for ER!
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-17-2006, 05:22 PM   #72
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

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Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
to go to. Just like you cons today.
....
You Cons have fought progress every step of the way!
I never been called a "cons" before. Just what is it?

CT, did you have a bad day at the lake?
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-17-2006, 05:33 PM   #73
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

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Originally Posted by Papi
I never been called a "cons" before.* Just what is it?
con = cranky old nerd
cons = cranky old nerds

Frequently the result of a softhead retiring early.* *
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-17-2006, 08:37 PM   #74
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

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Originally Posted by Caroline
That's a really interesting point.* Raises a couple of questions in my mind:

1.* Of those who are in the "7-digit nest egg club", how many attribute that primarily to investing in 401(k)s vs earning a pension, owning your own company, or hitting the real estate jackpot?

2. Of those who are in the "7-digit" club and include a pension as part of their total worth, what percentage confidence do you have that your pension won't be altered in your lifetime?
I'm in that club. I attribute it almost entirely to investing, both tax-deferred (Keo), and taxable. I did a few real estate speculations including some short platting, etc, but serial house sales contributed 0% of my current net worth. If you can get hold of some money, and are careful, investing can be very good. Of course, I also was investing mostly during some very opportune times. (My apologies to those who believe all times are equally good. I don't mean to offend.)

I don't have a pension.

Cheap living coupled to smart or lucky investing can go a long way.


Ha





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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-17-2006, 09:43 PM   #75
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

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Cheap living coupled to smart or lucky investing can go a long way.
Words of wisdom for sure!

And I would humbly add........those who figure out how to live on the least are usually the same ones who figure out how to make the most!
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-17-2006, 10:45 PM   #76
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

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Originally Posted by Rustic23
Where were the United employees and unions when management was under funding the pension plan? What responsibility do they bare for the bankruptcy and the under funded pension accounts? If what I learned in school is still true, business must produce a return on investment. It appears United employees could have their pay raises or fund the pension plan. Could it be United was just doing what regular folks are doing. Funding current goodies and worrying about retirement at a latter date? Big pay raises, and a promise of large retirements, a situation both employees and unions were more than happy to go along with.
Yeah, that issue of the under funding of the pensions was mysteriously never addressed. The way it was presented you come away feeling like the undering-funding was a complete surprise, like a great punch-line. This type of shallow reporting is what has turned me off of FL lately. The only reason I watched it is because I am interested in the retirement subject. I just didn't expect a full half of the show to be devoted to the United issue.
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-18-2006, 12:28 AM   #77
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

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Cheap living coupled to smart or lucky investing can go a long way.
Thanks for answering my question AND giving us a bit of good news, Ha! If you've made it to the "7-digit nestegg club" on the strenght of your 401(k) alone, there's hope for the rest of us.

Congrats on a job well done.





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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-18-2006, 05:03 AM   #78
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

MasterBlaster - Thanks for the answer on the pension

Quote:
JohnP:

United was contractually obligated and legally required to fund their pension to pay what they had promised their employees. Since paying that amount was bankrupting the company they felt that they had no choice. You need to think about the pension fund being in two parts. The first part is the portion of promised pensions that were covered by what was in the fund. That's the part that is not owned by United. The second part is what needs to be paid into the fund to actually acheive the payouts that were promised. Since they had grossly underfunded the second part and the business was losing gobs of money management felt that they needed to reorganize under Chapet 11. There was no way under the old company that they could ever get the pension fully funded and live up to their promises.

So to answer your question directly... Could the old United just have decided to not bring the pension plan up to a fully funded level. The answer is no... They were legally required to fund the pension to the level of their promised payouts.

Those employees are screwed either way. Bankrupcy disolution means they lose their job and the non-funded part of their pensions. A chapter 11 reorganization means that they at least have a job and the enterprise could continue.
Your answer tells me that there may still be something in the Pension fund (meant for employees) after the company-portion has been taken to fund the bankruptcy, pay the lawyers, and give obscene bonuses to management.*

Is there a traditional part (or %) of the "Employees" Pension Fund that cannot be 'taken' in Chapter 11 proceeding or is it all fair game.* If it is all fair game to be 'taken' and it was actually taken, then my 'stolen' comment still stands.

Interesting quote from Rustic23
Quote:
Where were the United employees and unions when management was under funding the pension plan? What responsibility do they bare for the bankruptcy and the under funded pension accounts? If what I learned in school is still true, business must produce a return on investment. It appears United employees could have their pay raises or fund the pension plan. Could it be United was just doing what regular folks are doing. Funding current goodies and worrying about retirement at a latter date? Big pay raises, and a promise of large retirements, a situation both employees and unions were more than happy to go along with.
I remember reading for at least 20 years* that our congress had, every year, passed special bills that allowed underfunding of pension plans, sometimes underfunding because the economy was tight and co's needed a chance, and sometimes, when the economy was booming, because the co's needed to refill their bank account.* It's been like watching a long slow-motion train wreck, with the full approval of our congresses.

JohnP
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-18-2006, 07:22 AM   #79
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

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Originally Posted by JohnP
It's been like watching a long slow-motion train wreck, with the full approval of our congresses.

JohnP
Why do you blame the congress? What ever happened to personal responsibility? The folks at United were living in the present with no regards for the future. The fact that the United pension funds and those of GM and a bunch of other large corporations were or are under funded. Their employees and certainly their unions know it. They don’t make it a negotiating point in their contracts. Health care, vacation, work hours, big pensions … yes…. Funding the pension NO. So business puts the emphasis where they must to continue business, and fund the pension out of current cash flow. What went wrong is the cost of doing business caught up with them and they could no longer had cash flow.

Now for ‘Corporate Executive’ pay offs. Lets see some facts on how management faired. Not new management, but the folks that ran United into the ground. Are we talking about one or two or two hundred people that got fat bonuses. No rhetoric, lets here the facts. Is this the case of one or two employees getting large contractual payoff? I don’t know and therefore I am unwilling to join the cut throat liberals in an open condemnation without the facts.

For information, here 20 companies in the same shape with regards to pensions.
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/P87329.asp
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-18-2006, 08:10 AM   #80
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

Thanks for the comment Rustic
Quote:
Why do you blame the congress? What ever happened to personal responsibility? The folks at United were living in the present with no regards for the future. The fact that the United pension funds and those of GM and a bunch of other large corporations were or are under funded. Their employees and certainly their unions know it. They don’t make it a negotiating point in their contracts. Health care, vacation, work hours, big pensions … yes…. Funding the pension NO. So business puts the emphasis where they must to continue business, and fund the pension out of current cash flow. What went wrong is the cost of doing business caught up with them and they could no longer had cash flow.
I think that there is plenty of blame to go around in this situation; personal, unions, management, congress, etc.* I believe that congress has more 'visibility' than most individuals and therefore I would expect them to be a little more responsible... but noooo!*

I place congress first among responsible enablers for the loss of dbp retirement security of the past years.* Corporations just see a big pot of cash money that they can easily tap (just do a Chapter 11 and the employees' retirement money can be yours...) and gain bonuses to boot - who wouldn't do it when our congress makes it easy to do.* The employees are the ones who get hurt.

Thanks for the site with the 20 companies in the same shape as United!

Best regards

JohnP
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