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I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-16-2006, 08:10 PM   #1
 
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I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

United Airlines screwed this guy out of his pension!! - Why didn't they go after the executives that made millions!!


Guess who gets to cover the pension shortfalls? - The Taxpayers!


Forget about throwing poor immigrants in jail - I want every past executive of any company with a defaulted pension plan thrown in the slammer until the pension plans are solvent!!

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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-16-2006, 08:22 PM   #2
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

Quote:
Forget about throwing poor immigrants in jail - I want every past executive of any company with a defaulted pension plan thrown in the slammer until the pension plans are solvent!!
Ney ney. You're missing an important economic principle.

It's only the workers who are responsible for why companies never have enough money to meet their obligations. They're just too expensive. The execs are working their ba11s off all the time, that's why they need those big bucks
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-16-2006, 08:56 PM   #3
 
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

Bottom line on this program - 'The end of Retirement' - Lifetime work.

They came to the same conclusion that we have. Social Security is not in trouble. Most all Baby Boomers will have to continue to Work!

I'd still like to see every executive of every company whose pension plan defaults in the Slammer and his assets confiscated! - This makes me more angry than any crime that I can think of!
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-16-2006, 09:00 PM   #4
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

Yeah, it was a depressing piece. The final line was the bottom line, for most people retirement now means "lifelong work." It isn't just that people don't save enough, they don't have the vaguest clue what is needed.

Looks like we won't have much company in our ER
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-16-2006, 09:07 PM   #5
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

I have it on TIVO and plan to watch it once the flooding eases up here in the North East.
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-16-2006, 09:08 PM   #6
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
United Airlines screwed this guy out of his pension!! - Why didn't they go after the executives that made millions!!


Guess who gets to cover the pension shortfalls? - The Taxpayers!


Forget about throwing poor immigrants in jail - I want every past executive of any company with a defaulted pension plan thrown in the slammer until the pension plans are solvent!!

I've been arguing with a friend of mine who's a benefits consultant that the 401k is a big
money grab by employers. I like many of the features of the 401k, its poratability and the fact that you own it......but ask anyone who had a defined benefit pension and they thought that they owned that as it was part of their compensasion......, but the thing that's always pissed me off is the 4 or 5% (if you're lucky) employer contribution when some simple maths shows that defined benefit pensions are worth 8 or 9 % of salary. When a 401k replaces a traditional pension did any employee gat a 4% rise?

The line that I hit me most was that woman from BU who said word to the effect of

"if by some miracle you do make a 401k work then how do you get income from it"

That's why I'm here trying to pick the brains of all you good folks as to how to make the nest egg last while taking income. Maybe that TC lifetime annuity is an option........;-)
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-16-2006, 09:10 PM   #7
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

Two things poped out ot me after watching FL. *First, the shift of risk form corporations to their employees and second the reduced cost to corporations 6 - 8% of payroll for pensions to 3 - 6% of payroll with company matched 401K only for those enrolled.
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-16-2006, 09:27 PM   #8
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

They hit the nail on the head on how 401k plans are working. Our company has 200 employees and we have roughly 125 active participates. Of that, only 20% are saving an appropriate amount for retirement. Many are contributing less than 4% of their salary to the plan. Many make poor investment choices due to apathy or just don't have the education to make good choices. Another problem is that too many file for hardship and cash in their plan before retirement. I know many do this for reasons that truely are not IRS defined hardships, but they do it anyway.

Our company use to offer 70-80 fund choices within the plan. The more the better was the thinking. Now we offer just 16 options in an attempt to help make the selection process less painful and make it easier for the average employee make good choices. Half the options are lifestyle and target funds.

I personally like 401k plans, but I think the show is correct in that many will have a tough go when they reach retirement and all they have is a small balance in their 401k account.

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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-16-2006, 09:35 PM   #9
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
Forget about throwing poor immigrants in jail - I want every past executive of any company with a defaulted pension plan thrown in the slammer until the pension plans are solvent!!
Thats gonna be a lot of license plates.

I learned a lesson about this a few years ago. Dont watch tv shows that make me mad.
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-16-2006, 10:23 PM   #10
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

I think the show should have been named "United Flight 11" (as in chapter 11). It was disappointing to me as the first half concentrated too much on United. And with all the harping on low paid employee returns versus high paid employee returns it never mentioned the fact that most of those lower returns most likely come from a dearth of money market funds in 401k accounts.
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-16-2006, 10:41 PM   #11
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

And the worst part is that these guys think they are entitled. I saved the company, so my fixed pension and $4.5 million bonus are justified. Where do you even begin with that? Give me that package for a year or two at the most and me and a couple of my closest friends would live pretty well.

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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-16-2006, 10:56 PM   #12
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

I agree with the comment on too much United.

I disagree vehemently with the frequently repeated opinions on the show that:

1) only the rich will be able to retire. *This board is the big counterexample to that. *There are numerous examples of early retirees on this board who reached 7-digit nest-eggs with mid 5-digit incomes.

2) 401K's are terrible. *That just isn't true. *It's true that some managements don't sell/manage them well, and employees are apathetic. *That's not the fault of 401K's.

Not one true success story was presented. *Even the first National Semiconductor retiree only had $400K in his account and blamed himself for not starting earlier. *They couldn't have found one voluntary early retiree from that company?

I was terribly disappointed with the show. *I expected at least some balance. *
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-17-2006, 01:25 AM   #13
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

Quote:
1) only the rich will be able to retire.* This board is the big counterexample to that.* There are numerous examples of early retirees on this board who reached 7-digit nest-eggs with mid 5-digit incomes.
That's a really interesting point.* Raises a couple of questions in my mind:

1.* Of those who are in the "7-digit nest egg club", how many attribute that primarily to investing in 401(k)s vs earning a pension, owning your own company, or hitting the real estate jackpot?

2. Of those who are in the "7-digit" club and include a pension as part of their total worth, what percentage confidence do you have that your pension won't be altered in your lifetime?



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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-17-2006, 03:11 AM   #14
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

I don't blame the CEOs for acting in the financial interest of their shareholders by expunging their obligations to pay pensions.* Corporations work for shareholders, and CEOs work for corporations.* This is due to the legal construct of the Corporation, as defined by US law.

Blaming a corporation for being greedy is like blaming a fish for swimming.* That's just what they do.

It's up to us as a society to create and enforce regulations that keep the corporations in line.* I blame congress for failing to enact laws to prevent the CEOs from discharging pensions.*
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-17-2006, 04:59 AM   #15
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caroline
That's a really interesting point.* Raises a couple of questions in my mind:

1.* Of those who are in the "7-digit nest egg club", how many attribute that primarily to investing in 401(k)s vs earning a pension, owning your own company, or hitting the real estate jackpot?

2. Of those who are in the "7-digit" club and include a pension as part of their total worth, what percentage confidence do you have that your pension won't be altered in your lifetime?
1. Me

2. A what?
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-17-2006, 05:22 AM   #16
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by free4now
I don't blame the CEOs for acting in the financial interest of their shareholders by expunging their obligations to pay pensions. Corporations work for shareholders, and CEOs work for corporations. This is due to the legal construct of the Corporation, as defined by US law.

Blaming a corporation for being greedy is like blaming a fish for swimming. That's just what they do.

It's up to us as a society to create and enforce regulations that keep the corporations in line. I blame congress for failing to enact laws to prevent the CEOs from discharging pensions.
Sorbaines Oxley (as flawed as it is) is out there because the people running companies don't care about shareholders as much as we might think. Transparancy and constant accountability are part of the solution.

I don't have much sympathy for CEO's slashing obligations to employees while making big bucks, but I also don't have much sympathy for people who have relied on DBP's with no backup. My Dad never counted on his DBP or his SS as sure things. Ironic that he lives quite well off his pension and SS while his Portfolio just keeps growing.

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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-17-2006, 05:47 AM   #17
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TargaDave
Sorbaines Oxley (as flawed as it is) is out there because the people running companies don't care about shareholders as much as we might think...

My Dad never counted on his DBP or his SS as sure things. Ironic that he lives quite well off his pension and SS while his Portfolio just keeps growing.
Agreed on both parts, but I think the show did a good job of demonstrating that your dad is not the average Joe, just as the people on this board are not the average Joe. We need systems that are designed to work for the average Joe.

I don't want to spend my twilight years surrounded by tired, defeated 80' something workers griping about how their companies/country failed them.
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-17-2006, 06:17 AM   #18
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

My take on last night’s program.
1. The company you work for is not in the business of looking out for your interest. They are there for their shear holders and their own survival. You are a line item on a balance sheet. Non-profits are not much better.
2. You are on your own when it comes to planning for your self and your family’s financial security.
3. The days when the government will step in the save you are long over.
4. Did mention that you are on your own.

I learned these truths late in life and went to work to get my financial house in order. I have to say however if it were not for the money that my husband inherited that we would both be wage slaves still and worrying about how the make ends meet. We did not have enough saved up and we were in debt. We got the information that we needed to clean up our acts so that when he inherited we knew what to do. If we had not we could right now be on the road to pissing away that legacy.

Quite frankly companies are not going the change their stripes and the government is not coming in to rescue the American worker. The American worker needs to wise up, get educated about their money and teach their kids the same. It is a learned skill just like any other.
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-17-2006, 07:12 AM   #19
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caroline
That's a really interesting point.* Raises a couple of questions in my mind:

1.* Of those who are in the "7-digit nest egg club", how many attribute that primarily to investing in 401(k)s vs earning a pension, owning your own company, or hitting the real estate jackpot?
I think it will be rare to find anyone who has a 7-digit 401(k) unless they were very lucky or were able to invest it in company hot stock, so the NatSemi guy with a half-million has done just fine.* There are a few reasons for this: (a) in the early days of the 401(k) the contributions were limited to $8K or so, (b) contributions were limited to a low percent of salary like 15%, and (c) 401(k)'s haven't been around long enough to amass the 7-figure sum.

I've maxed out my 403(b) and my subsequent 401(k) for the 20 years of my working life and have less than a half-million combined in them. * I think to get to 7-figures, you need to invest outside your retirement plans as well.* This was implicit in the Frontline story where two benefits consultants suggested that you should save 15% to 20% of your annual income.
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!
Old 05-17-2006, 07:20 AM   #20
 
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Re: I'm watching Frontline now and am already POed!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by free4now
I don't blame the CEOs for acting in the financial interest of their shareholders by expunging their obligations to pay pensions. Corporations work for shareholders, and CEOs work for corporations. This is due to the legal construct of the Corporation, as defined by US law.

Blaming a corporation for being greedy is like blaming a fish for swimming. That's just what they do.

It's up to us as a society to create and enforce regulations that keep the corporations in line. I blame congress for failing to enact laws to prevent the CEOs from discharging pensions.
Blame congress, but the Amercian Voter elected them!

Look at the clowns that are in there now. Last year Bush was trying to do to Social Security what the CEOs did to the pension Plans. And some of the people on this forum supported it!



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