Incentive Trusts - your thoughts?

[MooreBonds]

I guess the X years certain would help with that. After all, I doubt that his daughter is expecting any inheritance from her Dad long term (she can see he's a dead-beat), so maybe an X years certain annuity could work. I just wouldn't want to see her left out, though we could throw her some support from whatever we get - we really don't need it.



The other thing that I think some posters are missing - and I'll take the blame for that with such a long entry post - is it isn't an issue of him contesting the will or my Mom's trust (they have no-contest clauses), or his trust (he's the sole beneficiary, nothing really to contest, other than the fact that the bank determines the quarterly payments, but I think even he understands the reason for that - to keep him from blowing it). It's a longer term issue.

I understand that the two issues are somewhat 'unrelated'...but if you and your siblings' attempts to set the record straight on OO selling the business and it flourishing AFTER he sold it, so far have not sunk in - your mother passing on will not instantly solve any of that. And imagine if his ENTIRE YEAR'S worth of payments have been diverted to some unnamed charity - now THAT would be a certain 'unjustice' in his eyes that is undeniable (I'm not saying it's not justified, just that it's in black and white numbers that is known and not subject to personal views). Imagine how much he would hound you all and wail and gnash his teeth over an entire year's worth of living expenses taken away from him. He would be knocking on your door every day to complain!

ESPECIALLY because, after that, what has he got to lose for the rest of the year? He might as well give you all hell 10x over EVERY DAY for screwing him out of an entire year's worth of support.

I just don't see the bank wanting to get involved in a highly subjective LEGAL matter. Bank trust departments aren't in the business of legal matters, they are in the business of overseeing trust assets and distributions to people according to your mother's wishes. I'm willing to bet that if you presented your original proposed arrangement to a bank trust dept of them deciding when to send out a check, they would say " Give us the name of your family lawyer, and the family lawyer (outside neutral 3rd party) can be listed in the estate as the deciding judge on when the inheritance checks are given to OO". THAT is probably the only way a bank trust dept would agree to it, since it's all in the lawyer's hands to decide if the OO violated the terms of the trust.

And, as you can see instantly, THAT arrangement would involve legal fees at $250/hr every year. Probably $15,000/year in fees+, especially if OO files any sort of lawsuit, given all of the constant phone calling and bickering and other issues OO would undoubtedly engage in. Because there's no way you could keep OO from CONSTANTLY calling the lawyer. And I'm sure the lawyer would be happy to talk all day and night with OO while he is on the clock.

As another poster asked, just how much is OO thinking he is "owed"? On the order of $100k? Or is it $1MM or $2MM? If it's on the order of $100k or even $250k, can you just let mom leave him that much more to shut him up once and for all? Maybe even have mom written in her estate that the estate trustee will only give OO a check for $250k from her estate if he signs a memorandum that he will cease and desist all harassment of you and your siblings about past business in order to get the extra $250k. If he doesn't cease after the payment, then he will be hit with restraining orders and all contact will be forever cutoff.

What kind of harassment has he unleashed on you? Just phone calls every few weeks? Showing up at your house during the weekend to complain? Seeing you around town? How frequent is it and how in-depth?

Or how about this: What if you and siblings agree to cut checks to OO every year, starting after mother's passing, for $X from each sibling, with the clear understanding in writing that if OO says NOTHING about the business for the next 12 months, then he will continue to get $X each year from all siblings, and it repeats (if he then says nothing for months 13-24, he gets another stipend, and same for months 25-36, etc.)

If he harasses any of you (and you must, in writing, define what constitutes "harassment"), then he will not get his annual stipend next year from that sibling.

 

[ERD50]

OK, I'll try to do a quick reply on these points for now:

...

ERD, you mentioned OO has a daughter. It's a longshot, but I'm wondering if there there any options available for her involvement in managing her father's finances and behavior after after the grandmother passes.

This is something to think about. Off hand, I'm not sure we want to burden her with this, but maybe something is workable. As I mentioned, she seems fairly level headed at this point. We've been estranged from her to a point, due to the conflicts with her father, but we are on good terms with her. I have thought that it might be nice to have a little family meeting with her (w/o her dad, the OO), just to get everything out there, and to let her know we are there for her. I think she has a pretty good grasp of the situation, I don't think there would be any big surprises for her (she may not know the full depth of his actions) but I think a talk would help.

Something to think about, an angle I hadn't really considered. Thanks.

Sounds to me like 'odd one' has a mental illness, specifically a Delusional Disorder called Persecutory Type.

Yes, his actions really are on the level of some sort of mental disorder, and the one brother (who is out of state, so a little more isolated from this) keeps bringing that up. Delusional and Persecutory are certainly words I would use to describe him. Of course, I'm no mental health professional, and these things are not black/white, they are on a scale. But I will say, when I was in some family counseling sessions with OO (though he dropped out after 2 or 3) and my Mom, the professional counselor was not going down the mental illness path. The counselor really focused on the enabling, and that OO was just taking the easy way out because he could. I would think these counselors would be trained to look for that.

But it's certainly a possibility. Not sure what to do about it though. My feeling is, he is just too crafty, and is able to control himself when it benefits him (like the few times my Mom has actually worked up the courage to draw a line on something, or threaten to take him out of the will). I'm thinking true mentall illness would mean he couldn't control himself in those situation, the illness would over ride it. But I don't know.

-ERD50

 

[Dash man]

I think you need to get an attorney involved with this. He might have some insights on how to set things up so your family can be left in peace.

 

[CaliforniaMan]

I think you need to get an attorney involved with this. He might have some insights on how to set things up so your family can be left in peace.

I have read through this entire thread to this point but don't have a clue as to what to suggest. However, this must not be an unusual problem for families, and there must be some lawyers that handle this kind of matter on a regular basis. It will cost some money, but from the sound of the magnitude of the problems it will be worth it.

If I were you I would talk with the other siblings and find an attorney experienced with handling this kind of thing.

Sorry for your problems.

 

[MooreBonds]

But it's certainly a possibility. Not sure what to do about it though. My feeling is, he is just too crafty, and is able to control himself when it benefits him (like the few times my Mom has actually worked up the courage to draw a line on something, or threaten to take him out of the will). I'm thinking true mentall illness would mean he couldn't control himself in those situation, the illness would over ride it. But I don't know.

-ERD50

Don't confuse "mental disorder" with "non-functioning". While some mental disorders such as schizophrenia can leave someone in a 'less-than-functioning' state (like wandering around, talking to imaginary people, and/or multiple personalities), there are some mental disorders which can be found in functioning people. It just means that the mental disorder compels them to do certain things or act in a certain way (like certain manipulative ways) or it filters how they see scenarios or the world (like OO convinced that your sibling should pay him more for a successful business that he sold). It doesn't always mean the mental disorder renders them unable to lead somewhat productive lives.

Talk with many people with mental disorders, and 90%-95% of the time, they appear no different than any other person. But in those certain situations, their mental disorder compels them to act in certain ways that are not based on facts or the world around them, or in some other distorted way.

 

[ERD50]

I think you need to get an attorney involved with this. He might have some insights on how to set things up so your family can be left in peace.

We definitely will need an attorney to draft up this, and for suggestions on how (if) it can be made workable. I'm throwing it out here to get some ideas to prepare for such a meeting, and for alternatives.

Thanks! - ERD50

 

[akck]

I think the only thing a bank might find acceptable is a no contact clause. It is something relatively easily provable with phone call records, phone video recordings, etc. The only thing the rest of the family needs to do is to follow it too. You'll be cutting all ties with him and likely his daughter. It's not totally foolproof, but it's likely your best option.


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[Closet_Gamer]

OP -

I wouldn't conflate the behavior issue with the trust/inheritance issue. Using your Mom's money to try to control your sibling forever just sounds like a really bad plan. In fact, I would just let the money be discharged to each family member in the same way and drive on with life.

To others posts, you can't control your sibling but you can control yourself. Don't enable your sibling --even trying to set up an annuity is a form of taking responsibility for their issues -- and be prepared to always be the adult. If it comes to 911/restraining orders, so be it. Remember that "get the hell off of my property" is a legitimate reason to dial 911 and will establish a legal trail for enforcement of a restraining order.

I've seen these situations in my extended family. Very sad but also really unsolvable.

Keep it crisp and clean. Minimize future interaction rather than creating a vehicle that encourages it.

My $0.02.

 

[pb4uski]

One alternative might be for your Mom to build what is effectively a restraining order into the trust so you never have to deal with your wacko sibling. Or move.

I feel blessed that our siblings on both sides all get along for the most part and we don't have to deal with crap like this.

 

[Badger]

OP -

I wouldn't conflate the behavior issue with the trust/inheritance issue. Using your Mom's money to try to control your sibling forever just sounds like a really bad plan. In fact, I would just let the money be discharged to each family member in the same way and drive on with life.

To others posts, you can't control your sibling but you can control yourself. Don't enable your sibling --even trying to set up an annuity is a form of taking responsibility for their issues -- and be prepared to always be the adult. If it comes to 911/restraining orders, so be it. Remember that "get the hell off of my property" is a legitimate reason to dial 911 and will establish a legal trail for enforcement of a restraining order.

I've seen these situations in my extended family. Very sad but also really unsolvable.

Keep it crisp and clean. Minimize future interaction rather than creating a vehicle that encourages it.

My $0.02.

As I was getting to the end of the posts I was formulating essentially the same as the post above. Anything involving modifying the inheritance to address the behavior of OO approaches enabling him further and risks future confrontations. It may be past time to cut all family ties with him and make it clear (document) that any further contact will result in legal enforcement.

I have a brother who abused his role as POA when Mom was unable to take care of her finances. He started distributing her money to his family and friends against her and Dad's verbal and written instructions. It took a lawyer to force him to return her money. Mom kept telling me he was stealing her money and I didn't believe it at first. Mom died 6 years ago and my sister and I have not been in contact with him since. Sometimes you just have to let go.

Cheers!

 

[rodi]

So the real question is - how do we protect ourselves from his harassment down the line - after the will/trust is settled and closed, for issues outside the will/trust, and our Mom is no longer there to reign him in with threats of cutting him from the will?

You state that the issue is not the will/trust, it's separate from the will/trust... but you are trying to do a will/trust from your mother to solve these other issues.

I don't think anything from your mom's will/trust will solve this issue. The issue with your OO is one that will not go away with an incentive trust.

We have a family member that is somewhat similar: No good with money, takes advantage of his mother, has mental health issues. Now that DH is his mother's legal guardian - he's the one dealing with money requests, and the anger when it's not a "yes". I understand some of the issues dealing with a problem sibling. (In my case, an in law, but still impacting our lives.) I would not think of trying to control his behavior towards his sibling through his mother's will - it's a separate issue.

 

[W2R]

OP,

Sorry but you are just creating a new cause for harassment by all these ideas of incentives and arbitration, etc. The inheritance and the old grudge are two separate things. I would recommend keeping them separate.

If OO comes harassing the family members over his perceived slight, get a restraining order and have nothing to do with him. It really is the only thing you an do.

+1

I agree with robertf57 and think this might be the best approach.

ERD50, your family situation sounds really tough, and I am sorry that you and your siblings are going through this. Hopefully after your mother passes away, it will be easier to keep some space between you and OO. When she is gone, it is possible that the family dynamics may shift somewhat. In any event, good luck to you in dealing with all of this.

 

[yakers]

IIRC you live in Northern Illinois, if harrassment gets bad, don't you have a friend who has a cousin in Chicago called Guido that will have a 'talk' with him

 

[Lucantes]

OP,

Sorry but you are just creating a new cause for harassment by all these ideas of incentives and arbitration, etc. The inheritance and the old grudge are two separate things. I would recommend keeping them separate.

If OO comes harassing the family members over his perceived slight, get a restraining order and have nothing to do with him. It really is the only thing you an do.

+1

 

[Lucantes]

OP -

I wouldn't conflate the behavior issue with the trust/inheritance issue. Using your Mom's money to try to control your sibling forever just sounds like a really bad plan. In fact, I would just let the money be discharged to each family member in the same way and drive on with life.

To others posts, you can't control your sibling but you can control yourself. Don't enable your sibling --even trying to set up an annuity is a form of taking responsibility for their issues -- and be prepared to always be the adult. If it comes to 911/restraining orders, so be it. Remember that "get the hell off of my property" is a legitimate reason to dial 911 and will establish a legal trail for enforcement of a restraining order.

I've seen these situations in my extended family. Very sad but also really unsolvable.

Keep it crisp and clean. Minimize future interaction rather than creating a vehicle that encourages it.

My $0.02.

+1

 

[Lucantes]

You state that the issue is not the will/trust, it's separate from the will/trust... but you are trying to do a will/trust from your mother to solve these other issues.

I don't think anything from your mom's will/trust will solve this issue. The issue with your OO is one that will not go away with an incentive trust.

We have a family member that is somewhat similar: No good with money, takes advantage of his mother, has mental health issues. Now that DH is his mother's legal guardian - he's the one dealing with money requests, and the anger when it's not a "yes". I understand some of the issues dealing with a problem sibling. (In my case, an in law, but still impacting our lives.) I would not think of trying to control his behavior towards his sibling through his mother's will - it's a separate issue.

+1

 

[Music Lover]

I wouldn't conflate the behavior issue with the trust/inheritance issue. Using your Mom's money to try to control your sibling forever just sounds like a really bad plan. In fact, I would just let the money be discharged to each family member in the same way and drive on with life.

Add one more vote for this approach.

 

[ERD50]

OP - I wouldn't conflate the behavior issue with the trust/inheritance issue. Using your Mom's money to try to control your sibling forever just sounds like a really bad plan. ... .

Oh, I agree it's a really bad plan - but it's pretty much the best plan we can think of. Was that in "Argo": - "sir, it's the best bad plan we have.".

And it would be my Mom setting up the conditions of the trust, not us (we have no control over his trust, other than informing Mom that we feel we need this protection clause added). She has witnessed his threats, so she knows (but tries to ignore/forget) just how nasty he can be.

I think the only thing a bank might find acceptable is a no contact clause. It is something relatively easily provable with phone call records, phone video recordings, etc. The only thing the rest of the family needs to do is to follow it too. You'll be cutting all ties with him and likely his daughter. It's not totally foolproof, but it's likely your best option. ...

One alternative might be for your Mom to build what is effectively a restraining order into the trust so you never have to deal with your wacko sibling. Or move.

I feel blessed that our siblings on both sides all get along for the most part and we don't have to deal with crap like this.

... It may be past time to cut all family ties with him and make it clear (document) that any further contact will result in legal enforcement.

... Sometimes you just have to let go.

Believe me, none of the siblings has any problem with 'cutting ties' with him. That's exactly what we want. Me and my other local brother have had it 'up to here' for many years. My out of state brother came in to see my Mom before her operation, and in just a few hours, over the course of three days, was as frustrated as we are. The "OO" can just go away as far as we are all concerned. Of course, the 'rub' in all that is Mom still coddles him, so it divides the family. She mostly blames us for not being friendly to him, because he has her ear 24/7, and somehow, all the abuse he has heaped on us over the years gets smoothed over and rationalized. He is extremely manipulative.

So maybe a 'no-contact' clause (including no contact with any businesses owned by any of the siblings) is more straightforward than a 'no-harassment' clause.

I discovered another wrinkle yesterday. On Friday, I met with my Mom at the hospital with my computer, and we regained on-line access to some of her accounts so I can make sure her bills are getting paid, and transfer funds if needed (she had miss-typed passwords and got locked out, we had to call the bank to get the PW reset).

So yesterday I had some time to look in more detail, and unless she specifically gave the "OO" authority to use her Debit Card to withdraw over $500 in the past few weeks, plus use it for what looks like a $315 charge to repair his truck (he was driving her car, she didn't know and asked him for the keys), plus $150 of dollars in gas, and charges at $700 costco and other stores, all over the past 4 weeks, and with almost zero use of that card before she went into the hospital. So it sure looks like he is stealing from her. I imagine he'll try to rationalize these as all for maintenance on her house, or some other twisty explanation

But I also hate to trouble her with this while she is trying to recover (and recovery has been difficult for her). But it could be going from aggravating to criminal.

He has also talked her into doing $20,000 of repairs on some property she owns. If she had asked us, we would have told her to forget it, you'll never get your money out of it. The building is a tear-down. But the "OO" has some emotional ties to that old building, so I think he just wants to see it 'restored' - as long as he isn't paying for it, or doing the work himself!

-ERD50

 

[healthyandfun]

My advice is kind of out there. . . . Let him have your share of the money when Mom passes on and then immediately cease all contact with him. Move on and have a wonderful life.

 

[ERD50]

My advice is kind of out there. . . . Let him have your share of the money when Mom passes on and then immediately cease all contact with him. Move on and have a wonderful life.

Not really so out there. I'd consider it if I thought it would work.

It's also an emotional/ego thing with him. He cannot be satisfied. But, he needs the money, so it can be used as leverage to shut down his ego attacks.

The 'ceasing contact' thing isn't in my control. I have absolutely zero problem 'ceasing contact' with him, the less contact the better. It the 'ceasing contact' from him to me (and siblings) that we want to stop.

-ERD50

 

[Another Reader]

In your shoes, I would immediately change the pin on the debt card. If he comes after you, tell him he is stealing and if he does it again, you will have him arrested. Then hang up the phone.

This guy is a powder keg waiting to explode. If this were me, I would cease all contact with him now and suggest to the other siblings they do the same. Don't answer the phone when he calls, don't go to gatherings that will put you in the same room, etc. When your mom passes, let the trustee or attorney handling the estate hand him his check. No special treatment, that will just aggravate him, and possibly drive him to violence directed at you or the other siblings.

Do what you can do to help and protect your mom while she is alive. Make sure there are powers of attorney in place for all of her assets should she become incompetent. When she dies, get on with your life.

 

[Brat]

I would inform your Mother's attorney of what you found.

 

[ERD50]

In your shoes, I would immediately change the pin on the debt card. If he comes after you, tell him he is stealing and if he does it again, you will have him arrested. Then hang up the phone. ...

I can't do that until I hear from my Mom that she didn't give him any authority to use it. He's also using her CC's (at least the ones I could access), and she has quite a few auto-billing things set up, so it would be a lot of work to track these all down and get them set up.

Assuming our meeting with her confirms he is (at minimum) abusing the use of these (just as he did with her car), she will have him give her the cards (and I'll take them to hold). Probably all we can do for now, depending on how she sees the situation.

I'd be all for having him arrested, but that will just make me the 'bad guy', and Mom would not press charges. He's a 'good boy', don't you know?

This guy is a powder keg waiting to explode. If this were me, I would cease all contact with him now and suggest to the other siblings they do the same.

I can't believe my previous posts are not making this point - we are trying to cut contact with him. But there are limits, as he lives with Mom (and now he is at the hospital as much as possible, showing what a 'good son' he is), and we want to take care of Mom. And she thinks we should all 'just get along'.

Don't answer the phone when he calls, don't go to gatherings that will put you in the same room, etc.

That's what we have done for years. But Mom keeps pushing that we should all get together for holidays and such (we refuse). None of want to be in the same room with him. We fear a blow up, we are on pins and needles when he is there, fearing any comment we make will be taken as an attack on him. We get Mom to understand, but then he gets her ear 24/7 and twists her around to his thinking. Does he need to move out of the house - yes, everone has told her that for decades. She can't (won't) do it.

When your mom passes, let the trustee or attorney handling the estate hand him his check. No special treatment, that will just aggravate him, and possibly drive him to violence directed at you or the other siblings.

That is how it is set up now, but he will be driven to harass us to feed his ego regardless. That is why we are looking for some leverage. I think the legal system, and waiting for him to do something is going to be very long, complicated, and drawn out, taking a lot of our time. If the incentive clause can tell him 'stay away or no money this year', it just might be enough to shut him up, and go find some other outlet for his ego.

Do what you can do to help and protect your mom while she is alive. Make sure there are powers of attorney in place for all of her assets should she become incompetent.

Already done.

When she dies, get on with your life.

That's the goal. But he will very likely come after us, and not allow us to just 'get on with our lives'. He feels he was wronged, and it has festered for 20 some years, it consumes him (because he does nothing else with his time), and there is no satisfying him.

He has failed at everything he has ever attempted. Mom and Dad bailed him out every time. He resents us for having some success. They created a monster.

I would inform your Mother's attorney of what you found.

Yes, we will, once I get a fuller story from her, and talk with my brothers.

-ERD50

 

[Walt34]

Potentially you have the means for criminal charges on the credit cards and debit card, but that is complicated by the fact that your Mom has previously (apparently) given him permission to use them, thus creating a precedent and expectation. In MD, that would get the case thrown out of criminal court but there would still be civil recourse in small claims if you wanted to go that route. The law may of course differ where you are.

But you (or more accurately, your Mom) can end all use of the cards by sending him written notice that he is not to use them. Again, state laws may vary, I'm familiar with MD.

This will not cure the problem though but it can stop some of the financial bleeding.

Reading through all the the other's posts, I tend to agree that tying OO's behavior to the trust will not result in the objective you and your siblings want (OO go away and leave us alone) and may make it worse if it results in a year's income that he expected going elsewhere. Then he's gonna be really mad at you!

Sorry you and your siblings have to deal with this, family dynamics can be impossible to deal with sometimes. The best suggestion I have is see an attorney, perhaps a divorce attorney since they've seen all kinds of oddball situations and that may give them experience and ideas for options in family relationships involving anger and money.

Best of luck dealing with this.

 

[haha]

You have done very well ERD. You have a permanent drama source in your life, and it is very clearly Someone Else's Fault!

One thing I can't quite figure out. You state that none of the "good sibs" needs an inheritance, why not let your mother do whatever she wants? Maybe the current reality is just up her alley. If you are worried that she could become destitute, let her buy an annuity.

One's parent doing something different from what some children think should be done is not obviously a reason to step in. Old people enjoy agency as fully as younger people.

Ha