Incentive Trusts - your thoughts?

[kaudrey]

I agree with those who say the harassment issue should not be addressed in any way around the inheritance.

It is a legal issue - if he is harassing you now, which is sounds like he may be, get a restraining order NOW. If he starts harassing you later, get one then. This is not something that should be a financial issue at all. It is a physical safety issue, and you probably should have a conversation with local law enforcement.

[ERD50]

Sorry, have not had much time to study and reply. But I'm thinking maybe I need to start a different thread on experiences with RO. My impression is it mostly just a documentation step (an important one in many cases), it's not going to be very effective at stopping harassment.

-ERD50

[jon-nyc]

Well its certainly a much more blunt instrument than what you hope to get out of the incentive trust. It would be used to keep him away, not to keep him from bringing up certain topics.

[travelover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 Something along this line has kept me up many nights. We have seen him go into rages, just bat-sh!t crazy rages. During what was essentially an 'intervention' with him at one point, he ran out, drove away in his pick up truck to his nearby home, and returned driving like the blazes both ways. We actually video'd the 'intervention', thinking he would behave if he knew he was being taped. We have it on tape where me and my brother are talking about being ready to dial 911 if he gets out of the truck with a gun, and discussed running in opposite directions, maybe he'll only get one of us, and you can see my finger on the "9" button of the phone. You don;t want to experience that feeling. Every time I read or hear about a domestic squabble that leads to a shooting, I tense up inside. The fear has been way too real for us. I just want him to go away. He didn't have a gun that time, but being in a position where you literally fear for your life, and are thinking this could be it, I may never see my wife and kids again, well, it has an affect on you. I hope you never, ever experience it.............

Here is the crux of the issue. You are afraid of him, maybe rightfully so, though I suspect he is a wimp at heart. That fear is his power over you and you need to address it.

Rather than dealing with lawyers and trusts, you might be better served with paying someone that deals with security issues to give some advice on how to deal with him in a firm way that yields a positive outcome for you. I don't know specifically what that would consist of, but people with some celebrity have a constant problem with kooks and they deal with them. Perhaps the retired police here will have some advice on how to find a security specialist.

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by travelover Here is the crux of the issue. You are afraid of him, maybe rightfully so, though I suspect he is a wimp at heart. That fear is his power over you and you need to address it. Rather than dealing with lawyers and trusts, you might be better served with paying someone that deals with security issues to give some advice on how to deal with him in a firm way that yields a positive outcome for you. I don't know specifically what that would consist of, but people with some celebrity have a constant problem with kooks and they deal with them. Perhaps the retired police here will have some advice on how to find a security specialist.

Thanks, that is another avenue to think about.

I've had talks with Mom about how we fear he may do something rash, but I had to insist to her that she not relate that to him - that would empower him. But who knows?

He may very well be a wimp at heart, and nothing comes of this whatsoever. But I don't want to find out too late! Kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

-ERD50

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by youbet I'm quite surprised by your approach to this situation ERD50. You've stated and restated that your brother is a serious whacko and a genuine threat to the lives of you, your family, your siblings and their families. Yet you're spending your time proposing the likely ineffective solution of an incentive clause in a trust that may not go into effect for years depending on your mother's life span. ... I'm surprised that no one is commenting on the fact that you're talking about "a gun," "fear for your life," "never see my wife and kids again" and similar with the proposed solution being an incentive clause in a trust which would go into effect sometime in the future, perhaps distant future, giving OO a minor, after the fact, hand slap if he murders you all.

OK, thanks for that feedback, and here is what I think you are missing:

A) While we do consider him a potential threat, and we feared he had a gun that day, the fact is that he didn't. Can you get a restraining order on a fear? I doubt it. But I still feared it, and thought about what might happen if he got out of his truck with a gun. It doesn't change how I felt that day. And it doesn't change how I feel every time I hear about another domestic violence shooting. And it doesn't change that I've had many sleepless nights, worrying about what he might do. And I do consider him a potential threat. But again, I don't think you can get an RO on someone just by saying "I think he could hurt me sometime in the future". And that's probably a good thing. It shouldn't be too arbitrary.

B) While my Mom is alive, he has some restraint, because if he went too far, he could get cut out of any inheritance (he's the only one who 'needs' it).

C) The idea of the incentive trust (which may not be the right way to go, that's why I'm looking for ideas from all the good folks here on this forum), is that when "B" becomes ineffective at Mom's eventual passing, maybe the incentive clause would replace the 'threat' of having his inheritance pulled (a year at a time).

Quote:

You haven't posted in this thread for over 24 hours. Everything OK?

Yep, had to deal with some calls from the hospital, and some strategizing/planning with my out-of-state brother. And I finally got a little much-needed break from all this drama, and had an excellent beer-pairing dinner at a local restaurant (the brewer is a friend of mine).

I'm open to all ideas. I realize it's hard for people outside this to understand the intricacies of this very weird family situation. I really have a hard time believing it myself. It's like a bad dream

-ERD50

[Sunset]

I feel you should just go with the clean trust, run by the bank so you are not in the focus, and are out of his life.

Once your mother dies there will be no more "happy family get-togethers", you can stop seeing OO.

What I think will happen is OO will get a lawyer to break the trust, and the more conditions you stick in it the easier it will be to break.

I know a fellow getting a trust and that is his plan once the parent who set up the trust (for many of the same reasons as OO situation) dies.

Finally, you have to call 911 when needed, get RO's and keep a shotgun at home, never let OO in your house, never.

I'll bet OO has gotten his name on your mothers bank accounts or had himself named as the TOD (transfer on death) beneficiary. Meaning he will legally steal all her money. Obviously you don't ask her in front of him, and if you have POA, you can simply check yourself at the bank(s)/etc.

[W2R]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunset Once your mother dies there will be no more "happy family get-togethers", you can stop seeing OO.

Also, it's remotely possible that OO will drift away and completely stop contacting ERD50 and his other siblings after her death.

Right now his whole life seems centered around manipulating ERD50's mother. When she is no longer in the picture that might change the dynamics of this whole situation for the better.

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by W2R Also, it's remotely possible that OO will drift away and completely stop contacting ERD50 and his other siblings after her death. Right now his whole life seems centered around manipulating ERD50's mother. When she is no longer in the picture that might change the dynamics of this whole situation for the better.

It is possible, and that would be a good thing, but I agree with you that it is, unfortunately, a remote possibility.

The OO still has this all-consuming feeling that he was cheated by my other brother, it's become a matter of 'pride' with him to get resolution (not just $, but acknowledgement that he was cheated), and he's mad at me when my mediating attempts didn't side with his (twisted) thoughts. I don't think that will go away with my Mom's passing.

Oh well, I was able to turn over some information/evidence (a 10 year old video of a sort of 'intervention' of my Mom asking OO to stop the harassment) to my out-of-state brother (who has been mostly isolated from this, so has a more unbiased view). It seems that video really got the message to him of just how extreme this has been. Maybe he can help, he's stepped up his involvement, after seeing that video. I don't know if he thought we were exaggerating all this time, or just the distance made it less real/immediate, or if we were never able to communicate this weird stuff effectively. The out-of-state brother said his wife now understands why we fear OO, so there's some independent validation.

-ERD50

[Golden sunsets]

ERD; this seems to be an untenable situation while your mother is living. Reading your various comments it appears to me that the problem is entirely her fault and it will continue as long as she lives, or is competent. I think she is the one who needs the tough love from you and your non OO siblings. How ill is she? Do you expect her to recover? If not then time will solve the problem and I'm sure you can remove yourself from this constant anxiety once she has passed. If you expect a recovery, I would suggest an intervention of sorts from you and sibs telling her what her enabling has done to the family dynamic. Once you started talking guns and fear for your life this stopped being an interesting thread and sent up red flags that you need outside professional help (think attorneys, security specialists and last but not least therapists).

My $.02.

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golden sunsets ERD; this seems to be an untenable situation while your mother is living. Reading your various comments it appears to me that the problem is entirely her fault and it will continue as long as she lives, or is competent. I think she is the one who needs the tough love from you and your non OO siblings. ...

That is a pretty good read of the situation. Yes, she is the 'enabler' (and to an extent, my Father when he was alive), and ultimately the cause of the problems.

She has got the 'tough love' message from us time and time again, and she has seen counselors, who all tell her the same thing (stop supporting the OO). All her friends and family who have any awareness of this tell her the same thing. She actually managed to 'get it together' enough for that 'intervention' we had with him 10 years ago (the video I mentioned). But she wouldn't hold up to it, she just got weak over time, and everything went back to where it was (or worse).

Quote:

How ill is she? Do you expect her to recover? If not then time will solve the problem and I'm sure you can remove yourself from this constant anxiety once she has passed. If you expect a recovery, I would suggest an intervention of sorts from you and sibs telling her what her enabling has done to the family dynamic.

We are hoping she returns to a decent quality of life, but she's frail enough, it is going to be very slow going, and this operation was a lot of stress, so we have to be prepared that she could have a quick turn for the worse at any time. Hard to say. She's mentally competent, but very worn out. Between the rehab therapy, and just little things like the effort to eat, have some one shower her and take her to the toilet, she's pretty worn out. She's making progress, but it is very slow.

On one hand, we don't want to bother her with any of this, but on the other hand, the OO has no such qualms, and is in there poisoning her against the rest of the family.

And the big problem that I've been trying to get across is, we don't think this problem will pass with my Mom. We fear that w/o her somewhat reigning him in (only at the extremes), all hell may break lose when she is gone, and he has his inheritance, with no fear of it being taken away.

-ERD50

[FIYes]

ERD50, you are hoping that an incentive trust will cause Oo to behave rationally in order to keep his income stream. Are you dealing with a rational person? From your description it sounds not. You think you are dealing with an angry, volatile person now...try taking his money away when he violates some aspect of the trust agreement. I recognize that hope of inheritance is probably part of what keeps him somewhat in line now, but I would guess that is only part of the equation...the mother/son dynamic is a powerful life long dynamic.

My opinion is that an incentive trust would lead to more involvement with OO, not less. For your safety, an inheritance that leads to less involvement should be your goal.


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[Dash man]

Not intending to make light of the situation, but you may have the basis of a good thriller novel here.

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FIYes ERD50, you are hoping that an incentive trust will cause Oo to behave rationally in order to keep his income stream. Are you dealing with a rational person? ... My opinion is that an incentive trust would lead to more involvement with OO, not less. For your safety, an inheritance that leads to less involvement should be your goal.

Yes, this may be how it goes. We'll see what my out-of-state brother starts coming up with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dash man Not intending to make light of the situation, but you may have the basis of a good thriller novel here.

No that's OK. We have to joke around about this a bit from time to time, just to keep our sanity. The trouble with the thriller novel idea is, the actual story is just too unbelievable. Wouldn't even make good fiction!

-ERD50

[Animorph]

I'll join with the plain trust crowd, with annuity style payout for the OO. It doesn't seem likely the the OO becomes rational enough to be motivated by an incentive, and may be set off on the other siblings by just its mere presence, with worse if it triggers. While you do lose the possibility of the incentive working for you, there are other ways to handle the problem if it actually comes to pass.

[akck]

I've been thinking about the annuity payout for OO. It would give him less to complain about if the trust was set up the same for all, either an annuity for all or no annuity. If he's different, it will just give him another avenue for complaint on how he's being cheated by the rest.

[hurricane harry]

Stop coddling already.
your as guilty as your mother.
divide the estate equally amogst the family and be done with it.