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Old 03-26-2017, 04:45 PM   #21
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I think in California you *must* do some professional driving school. First an online course in order to get your permit... then some behind the wheel training by a professional school (at least 3 lessons) before you can get your license. From my research (I have a 16 year old) it runs about $500 for this minimum.

Our district (san diego unified) used to offer drivers training in school - but that was cut for budgetary reasons a LONG time ago.
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Old 03-26-2017, 06:39 PM   #22
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Car insurance is also bad. I used to pay $1200 for 2 cars and then they started driving and car insurance went up to $5k for 4. Money for extra car... Gas money for them if they drive.
+1 Worth it.

We have five kinder, so it wasn't possible to get to, or deliver them to, every activity they wanted. Once the oldest got his license, we covered his insurance and designated a car for his use with the caveat that he was now a part-time chauffeur for his younger siblings. Ditto for the next one, etc. It may not have been the cheapest decision, but it allowed all our children to do, learn and enjoy some life experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have been able to do.

One of the great things I love about this forum is that it includes aspects of ER besides just the money ones. After all, the whole point of FIRE is attaining freedom to do what we really want so we can build the best life we can build.
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Old 03-26-2017, 06:44 PM   #23
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Wow, I knew about insurance going up, but not that much. I'm thinking we can get by with 2 cars, maybe a 3rd, if kids commuter forcollege if they stay local. DW & I won't drive all that much. We are also within a mile from the mall for any part time work opportunities for the kids so biking or walking are great options.
Your insurance rates will go up once your kids get a license even if they don't have a car that they are the primary driver for; a learner's permit did not affect our rates. At least not in Texas and later with a second child in Florida. I do not remember the cost of a driving teenager without a designated car on the our policy, but I think it was just under 1000/year.

We were close to what Fedup mentioned, 1100/year with DW and me. Added 2k/year/car&driver, so we are now around 5k/year for 4 cars and 4 drivers.
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Old 03-26-2017, 07:38 PM   #24
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We have five kinder, so it wasn't possible to get to, or deliver them to, every activity they wanted. Once the oldest got his license, we covered his insurance and designated a car for his use with the caveat that he was now a part-time chauffeur for his younger siblings. Ditto for the next one, etc. It may not have been the cheapest decision, but it allowed all our children to do, learn and enjoy some life experiences that they otherwise wouldn't have been able to do.
This doesn't work so well in California. For the first year a minor has a license s/he cannot drive other minors in the car unless s/he has another licensed adult over the age of 25. Not even siblings unless there is a note and a specific/limited reason. If you're caught in that first year of provisional license with other minors (friends or younger siblings) you lose your license.

Trust me - this is a factor - my kids go to a highly rated school that is not in our immediate area - it would be a BIG deal if older son could drive younger son next year... it would sway the decision towards him getting his license sooner.

Another factor on the multiple cars thing. DH and I have discovered that now that we're retired we rarely need 2 cars. So DH's old pickup could be used some of the time by kid(s). Not sure we need to buy a 3rd or 4th car.

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Provisional driver license restrictions during the first year

After you pass your driving test, you will be issued a provisional driver license. With your provisional driver license, you must be accompanied and supervised by a licensed parent, guardian or other licensed driver 25 years of age or older, or by a licensed or certified driving instructor when you:

* Transport passengers under 20 years of age at any time, for the first twelve months.

* Drive between 11 pm and 5 am for the first twelve months.

This means you cannot give anyone under 20 years old (your friends, your brother(s), sister(s), cousin(s), etc.) a ride unless you have a licensed parent, a guardian or other adult 25 years old or older in the car with you. You are also not allowed to drive between 11 pm and 5 am during your first year after getting your license unless you have a licensed parent, a guardian or other adult 25 years old or older in the car with you.
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/de...web/dl_btn2/dl
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Old 03-26-2017, 07:39 PM   #25
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I think in California you *must* do some professional driving school. First an online course in order to get your permit... then some behind the wheel training by a professional school (at least 3 lessons) before you can get your license. From my research (I have a 16 year old) it runs about $500 for this minimum.

Our district (san diego unified) used to offer drivers training in school - but that was cut for budgetary reasons a LONG time ago.
That's what I was referring to. But I think a parent can teach a kid to drive, I mean some people cannot afford this fee. So it's not a requirement.
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Old 03-26-2017, 08:10 PM   #26
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No comments so far on the "extra travel" in the title.

That seems 100% discretionary to me, so if medical bills are unexpectedly high, the travel budget can go down.

That said, consider the possibility that your extra free time will generate a greater desire to do something expensive.
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Old 03-26-2017, 09:30 PM   #27
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This doesn't work so well in California. For the first year a minor has a license s/he cannot drive other minors in the car unless s/he has another licensed adult over the age of 25. Not even siblings unless there is a note and a specific/limited reason. If you're caught in that first year of provisional license with other minors (friends or younger siblings) you lose your license.

Trust me - this is a factor - my kids go to a highly rated school that is not in our immediate area - it would be a BIG deal if older son could drive younger son next year... it would sway the decision towards him getting his license sooner.

Another factor on the multiple cars thing. DH and I have discovered that now that we're retired we rarely need 2 cars. So DH's old pickup could be used some of the time by kid(s). Not sure we need to buy a 3rd or 4th car.


https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/de...web/dl_btn2/dl
Unfortunate about CA, but in VA having an extra driver was a lifesaver. We have analogous restrictions and curfews for teens, but there are exceptions for family members.

Also, we didn't have to buy the kids a car. They got hand-me-downs. It worked out okay; since minivans don't even pretend to have a sporting character, they don't offer as much temptation to get cute behind the wheel. I was 16 back in the day when even station wagons had huge, rubber-squealing V8s. Today's family chariots have smaller, more economical powerplants mated to higher-traction front-wheel-drive arrangements which are less likely to stoke the fires of teenage speed fantasies.

When I think how reckless we were, I'm amazed any of my generation survived to adulthood.
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Old 03-27-2017, 08:37 AM   #28
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No comments so far on the "extra travel" in the title.

That seems 100% discretionary to me, so if medical bills are unexpectedly high, the travel budget can go down.

That said, consider the possibility that your extra free time will generate a greater desire to do something expensive.
Agreed, I have $10k extra in my retirement budget plus our standard budget for vacationing. It will be an area of consideration in lean times, however, it's important to us/me, so we will probably spend most of the budget as planned as time is limited.
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Old 03-27-2017, 08:40 AM   #29
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.... Also, we didn't have to buy the kids a car. They got hand-me-downs....
We have a 2015 Prius as a daily driver now, it might work out as a good hand me down when the time comes.

I hear it loud and clear about the driver's ed and insurance teenage needs.
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Old 03-27-2017, 08:44 AM   #30
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I've been amazed that, having been retired now for nearly 19 years, I'm spending considerably more than I made when I retired. Much of it is thanks to SPIA's and a good stock market over that period. Also, the older I get the more I'm inclined to think if I don't spend it now when will I.

Gill
Good problem to have. I won't be able to afford RE if I spend my current peak earning year salary amount, but I will try and have "good years" of fun and travel by spending upwards to 6 figures which is a fair amount higher than my current spend.
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Old 03-27-2017, 08:52 AM   #31
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So far, here is a list of extras that I should make sure is in my rough budget.

Car (used or hand me down) plus insurance ($2k per car/driver/year) Yes, you should get the chance to makeout in a car ;-)
Sports (kids preference?) and medical (OOP) Ok, but if I have too many sleepless nights, you are done.
Braces ($5k each) Yes, I think it's nice to have teeth for most part ;-)
Prom ($1k each) Yes, they should have the experience.
Food ($1k year) Yes, I guess I'll feed them.
Clothing ($1k extra each) This is beyond the current budget for their fashion appealing needs.
2 Cell Phone Service ($1k year) Basic smart phones can be had for under $100, anything beyond they will have to earn.

Yes, I know teenagers are impossible to plan for, but I am just listing what I might be willing to contribute if I support the activity/action. It is not a given that I will increase the current clothing, sports, or discretionary budget yet.
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Old 03-27-2017, 09:30 AM   #32
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Can't give suggestions on increases in expenses immediately after retirement, but think that longer term planning for 30 to 40 years after retirement might be easier by considering what I call phase two of retirement. In our case, beginning at age 70, expenses began going down rapidly. so that now, 10 years later, most of the variable expenses have dropped, or have gone away completely.
Our budget today, is about 55-60% of what it was in 2006. Much of this came when stopping the snowbird and travel expenses, but the balance was from across the board reductions in "buying things".
The change in expenses has not come from a decline in health or any concerns about future financial security.

Certainly, as often mentioned in other posts in ER, there are those who continue to travel and stay active as they age. Many have parents or friends who are still doing international travel at age 80 to 95. Bless them!... Checking our own life expectancy today, it looks like age 91.

Putting real dollars to the drop in expenses, on average the past ten years have seen a drop of about $3,000 to $5000/year. Current basic expenses are essentially stable, and look to remain that way.

As I see it, the decision to retire really depends on the desire. Particularly at age 50, there is always a fallback position to go back, if at a lower rate of pay. We were always prepared to do that, but were fortunate to get through without problems.
Below, a life expectancy chart for a current 50 year old.
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File Type: png Life expectancy.png (27.7 KB, 23 views)
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Old 03-27-2017, 10:23 AM   #33
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In the younger years it was braces and travel sports that challenged the budget.

The expenses on my children increased as they aged. High school age is expensive. College costs are out of control. Food expense being this biggest shocker. A kid eating out 3x a day is expensive.
My son and daughter spend like crazy on clothes in HS and college.
Also, according to them, everyone has the latest iphone. Those are about $750 a pop.
16? They will need a car. Their own car. For me, that was buying 2 cars.
Boy? car insurance. Tickets or hit something? more car insurance...

College. You should be set with $100k if the target is state U and you have a few more years to invest. Our state U is about $120k for four years. I saved $90k each in 529s and the rest came from scholarships. This didn't include food, fraternity fees, spring break, fall break, and formals.

Study abroad for a semester or year? If you don't do it in today's competitive college environment, you could be putting your kid at a disadvantage come job hunting days.

Just some items to be aware of. Sounds like you have a decent plan.
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Old 03-27-2017, 10:53 AM   #34
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/snip

Study abroad for a semester or year? If you don't do it in today's competitive college environment, you could be putting your kid at a disadvantage come job hunting days.
Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and say that's not going to be a problem for most people.

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Studying abroad isn't a common experience for most U.S. college students. In fact, only 1% of students manage to study abroad.
Studying abroad could give you an edge in the job market - CNN.com

If 99% of students don't study abroad (according to that 2 year old article), then I don't think it's something likely to impact someone's ability to get a decent job.
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Old 03-27-2017, 11:13 AM   #35
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That's what I was referring to. But I think a parent can teach a kid to drive, I mean some people cannot afford this fee. So it's not a requirement.
It is a requirement. You must have at least 6 hours of professional instruction as well as a classroom or online written course. I suspect the laws have changed since your kids were learning. I linked the current rules above, for California. OP is from California.
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:12 PM   #36
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Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and say that's not going to be a problem for most people.


Studying abroad could give you an edge in the job market - CNN.com

If 99% of students don't study abroad (according to that 2 year old article), then I don't think it's something likely to impact someone's ability to get a decent job.
Tell me you didn't cite CNN as a credible source... I'll let that be your mulligan.

At any rate, the OP was looking for potential cost items. That's one that has potential. Yeah, Study Abroad has a mere 3% participation rate (See College Boards site) but the rate in increasing; however, only 13% of college grads find jobs in their field of study. Optimum word(s) here in study abroad is "advantage/disadvantage". It can be a costly option, and something to budget for in the college experience, but clearly provides an advantage to the students that participate in it.
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:17 PM   #37
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It is a requirement. You must have at least 6 hours of professional instruction as well as a classroom or online written course. I suspect the laws have changed since your kids were learning. I linked the current rules above, for California. OP is from California.
Interesting. How do poor people do it. Maybe the laws have changed because I did remember my oldest kid gave the youngest a ride. But very fuzzy. It was almost 10 years ago.
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:19 PM   #38
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Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and say that's not going to be a problem for most people.


Studying abroad could give you an edge in the job market - CNN.com

If 99% of students don't study abroad (according to that 2 year old article), then I don't think it's something likely to impact someone's ability to get a decent job.
I don't think this is a requirement for job. Some BS programs you can't spend a semester abroad like CS or engineering. Hence my kid did a summer abroad. But you need a car for internships and that's more important for jobs after graduation, even if you did nothing in those internships.
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:31 PM   #39
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Tell me you didn't cite CNN as a credible source... I'll let that be your mulligan.

At any rate, the OP was looking for potential cost items. That's one that has potential. Yeah, Study Abroad has a mere 3% participation rate (See College Boards site) but the rate in increasing; however, only 13% of college grads find jobs in their field of study. Optimum word(s) here in study abroad is "advantage/disadvantage". It can be a costly option, and something to budget for in the college experience, but clearly provides an advantage to the students that participate in it.
According to NAFSA, in 2015 approximately 1.5% of students studied abroad. The article I mentioned said 1% and was from an earlier year with trends showing "more" students studying abroad. It did say the increase was ~3% (2.9%). Whether you trust the source I quote or not, it was pretty accurate for the year it was describing. I don't really need a mulligan for quoting a source that, it turns out, is accurate based on other sources as well.

Trends in U.S. Study Abroad | NAFSA

Then there are the following questions one could consider regarding studying abroad:
Does the advantage outweigh the costs though? Is there any data to suggest it does?
Are they going to recoup the costs of paying for that advantage?
Does it provide an advantage to all students, or just students of select fields?
If there is a difference based on field of study, which fields should consider it and which should ignore it?

I don't disagree that studying abroad could be a potential cost if parents want to pay for their kids to do it. So could financing a 1 year global vacation for their kids, or buying them each their first house, etc. I disagreed with the implication that failing to do so was going to somehow negatively impact some unknown kid's job prospects.
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Old 04-01-2017, 10:05 AM   #40
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snip/

Food expense being this biggest shocker. A kid eating out 3x a day is expensive.
.....
Study abroad for a semester or year? If you don't do it in today's competitive college environment, you could be putting your kid at a disadvantage come job hunting days.

Just some items to be aware of....
Hmmm Food expense of eating out 3x a day would be a bit much but I can see with schedules and activities, i.e. sports, clubs, etc. I think I'll still have them pack protein bars, sandwiches, fruits, etc. Let's hope they don't get silly with 3x a day Starbucks as I won't fund that.

Studying abroad is an interesting one. I think it'll depend on their major and experience they could benefit. I know during the high school years we'll plan 2-3 week trips to Asia and Europe. This falls in the category of experiencing something I never did in high school or college and prefer to do the trips while I'm young with them.
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