Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-16-2013, 04:47 PM   #41
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
REWahoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas Hill Country
Posts: 42,094
Quote:
Originally Posted by timo2 View Post
My DW has an individual LTC policy with CNA Insurance Companies purchased in 2002. In 2003, CNA quit selling individual policies, but kept the individual ones they already sold. So it is concerning that the premiums might go up extremely at some future time.
DW and I also purchased LTC policies from CNA in 2000 (ages 52 and 53), with premiums under $600/year each. The policies had a 10 year guarantee of premium and I was expecting an increase when the guarantee expired a couple of years ago, but (fingers crossed) so far no change.

Our policies have a 90 day waiting period and a 5% compound annual inflation rider. I'm hoping the fact the policies are for three years rather than lifetime coverage will keep us off the radar screen for some of the big increases we've been hearing about.
__________________

__________________
Numbers is hard

When I hit 70, it hit back

Retired in 2005 at age 58, no pension
REWahoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 02-16-2013, 04:47 PM   #42
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
mickeyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Texas~29N/98W
Posts: 5,881
Every time that I read one of these LTCi premium increase posts I am encouraged more and more that I made an ititial decision years ago that I would not toss my hard-earned money after this flawed insurance product. As insurance companies drop this product or choose to continue it but jack up the rates each year (seemingly) I wonder how many more LTCi policyholders will come to the same conclusion that I made a while ago.
__________________

__________________
Part-Owner of Texas

Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. Groucho Marx

In dire need of: faster horses, younger woman, older whiskey, more money.
mickeyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2013, 06:05 PM   #43
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulligan View Post
Its funny how people can read the same statistics and come up with a different answer. I think of it as, I have a 92% chance of skating through financially pretty much unscathed. If I have a 92% success rate in the sports-book, I would bet 7 days a week! Of course I am looking for a reason not to buy this as I see insurance as a drain on my finances. If I took out every insurance policy available to protect myself, I would have nothing to protect. I certainly understand the $21k issue. That philosophy has also caused me to not sell some stocks back in the day when I should have! Everyone's situation is different though, and I am certainly understanding of that. Now if they would actually sell a truly meaningful policy, like a low cost plan that doesn't kick in until after a 3 year stay, I would listen.
Yes a policy like the one you describe would certainly be appealing if priced appropriately but with the experience I'm having I would want some guarantee as to the rate of allowable premium increases.
__________________
ejman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2013, 06:10 PM   #44
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeyd View Post
Every time that I read one of these LTCi premium increase posts I am encouraged more and more that I made an ititial decision years ago that I would not toss my hard-earned money after this flawed insurance product. As insurance companies drop this product or choose to continue it but jack up the rates each year (seemingly) I wonder how many more LTCi policyholders will come to the same conclusion that I made a while ago.
I'm starting to come around to your way of thinking. I'm now starting to realize that the original LTC unlimited policies were fundamentally a different product than normal insurance - say life, home, auto or excess liability or medical as it used to be before Obamacare. There was a limit to the insurers potential liability and some good calculations as to future obligations could be made. Apparently not so for LTC unlimited policies.
__________________
ejman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2013, 08:37 PM   #45
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Dawg52's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Central MS/Orange Beach, AL
Posts: 7,435
Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo View Post
DW and I also purchased LTC policies from CNA in 2000 (ages 52 and 53), with premiums under $600/year each. The policies had a 10 year guarantee of premium and I was expecting an increase when the guarantee expired a couple of years ago, but (fingers crossed) so far no change.

Our policies have a 90 day waiting period and a 5% compound annual inflation rider. I'm hoping the fact the policies are for three years rather than lifetime coverage will keep us off the radar screen for some of the big increases we've been hearing about.
Mine is similar to yours. I pay $460/yr to Unum and also has a 5% inflation rider, but caps out at twice the initial per annum benefit. So if I live in my 80's and then I need the policy, it won't pay anywhere near what the going nursing home rates will charge. But I can live with it thinking of it as a supplement policy. This plan will pay up to 6 years of nursing home care. My policy is part of a group plan my old employer offered and still offers. Portable of course.

I've had it for 10 years and also hope it falls under the radar screen for similar reasons. No increases to this point.
__________________
Retired 3/31/2007@52
Full time wuss.......
Dawg52 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 06:34 PM   #46
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
obgyn65's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: midwestern city
Posts: 4,061
Personally, I would not drop it - even after an 85% increase.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejman View Post
I'm conflicted and very tempted to just drop it but would certainly appreciate your input.
__________________
Very conservative with investments. Not ER'd yet, 48 years old. Please do not take anything I write or imply as legal, financial or medical advice directed to you. Contact your own financial advisor, healthcare provider, or attorney for financial, medical and legal advice.
obgyn65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 07:10 PM   #47
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
JoeWras's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,518
We have a policy and are waiting to find out what our increase will be. They are still working it through the state regulators.

Frankly, we bought this more for early life issues than late life. By perhaps bad coincidence, we've had young friends' spouses come down with early dementia problems (age less than 65). It has been devastating to them and their families, both emotionally and financially. After seeing this, we bought the LTC when a group window opened at w*rk.

It will be a tough call. Right now the premium is very affordable. I can't see how it won't go up significantly. We shall see.
__________________
JoeWras is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 07:18 PM   #48
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
timo2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rio Rancho
Posts: 1,438
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeWras View Post
We have a policy and are waiting to find out what our increase will be. They are still working it through the state regulators.

Frankly, we bought this more for early life issues than late life. By perhaps bad coincidence, we've had young friends' spouses come down with early dementia problems (age less than 65). It has been devastating to them and their families, both emotionally and financially. After seeing this, we bought the LTC when a group window opened at w*rk.
That's one of the reasons I and DW have our LTC policies. LTC is not only for the last 5 years of life, but for potential consequences of automobile accidents, premature health conditions, etc. Two years after I bought mine, I had a heart attack at age 51. I've recovered well, but I definitely could not replace my policy after that. Also, I realized that if I were an older person, I would not have recovered so well - it took me 5 years of hard work until I felt somewhat-normal again. An older person with the heart attack I had may indeed have needed some LTC for a period of time.
__________________
timo2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 11:04 PM   #49
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,615
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeWras View Post
Frankly, we bought this more for early life issues than late life.
If that were my concern, I'd get one of the very reasonably-priced policies without inflation protection. Even buying 2x the coverage is much cheaper (for those who are relatively young) than buying the policies with the inflation costs built into the premium.

Count me as among those waiting for a "pure insurance" product: 24-36 month elimination period, shared benefit between the two of us. I haven't seen anything like that.
__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2013, 01:40 AM   #50
Full time employment: Posting here.
martyp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Bangkok
Posts: 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejman View Post
We have had a LTC policy with CALPERS since 1998 and have paid about $21K for a basic policy currently covering nursing home to $162/day, Residential Care facility to $81/day. It has a 5%/year inflation protection, a 90 day deductible and lifetime coverage. Premiums are currently $1,908/year for the two of us (Ages 64 and 62). There are about 150,000 members enrolled but enrollment has been closed for a few years now.

We just received a notice "You are receiving this notice because your policy provides lifetime benefits and built in inflation protection. Policies of this type are subject to the 2013 and 2014 five percent premium increase, as well as the 2015 premium increase of approximately 85 PERCENT".
My wife and I both got the same letter last week. We are waiting to see what other options will be offered.
__________________
Happy, Wild, and Free
martyp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2013, 02:48 AM   #51
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,572
Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeyd View Post
Every time that I read one of these LTCi premium increase posts I am encouraged more and more that I made an ititial decision years ago that I would not toss my hard-earned money after this flawed insurance product. As insurance companies drop this product or choose to continue it but jack up the rates each year (seemingly) I wonder how many more LTCi policyholders will come to the same conclusion that I made a while ago.
+ 1

I've also concluded that self insurance is a better option for us.
__________________
Budgeting is a skill practised by people who are bad at politics.
traineeinvestor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2013, 06:31 AM   #52
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
JoeWras's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,518
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
If that were my concern, I'd get one of the very reasonably-priced policies without inflation protection. Even buying 2x the coverage is much cheaper (for those who are relatively young) than buying the policies with the inflation costs built into the premium.

Count me as among those waiting for a "pure insurance" product: 24-36 month elimination period, shared benefit between the two of us. I haven't seen anything like that.
We don't have inflation protection. Perhaps that is why the policy is reasonable.
__________________
JoeWras is offline   Reply With Quote
LTC can be useful in another way.
Old 02-21-2013, 12:43 AM   #53
Dryer sheet aficionado
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 49
LTC can be useful in another way.

I stumbled upon this site and saw this discussion on LTC. I recently purchased some a couple of years ago and did a lot of research and still do some as I find it an interesting topic and always wonder if I did the right thing.

I bought the policy because I did not want to burden my family and did not want my wife to be stressed out over taking care of me. My father had cancer and no such long term care insurance and my sisters and I had a lot of difficulty taking care of him especially when two of us lived cross country. That left the one closest to him with the overwhelming responsibility. That us other two feeling very guilty and all threw of us had our own families to maintain.

I can tell you that those of you who feel you can self insure must really be millionaires. My dad was in a facility in New York and the cost was nearly $400 per day. His first visit was for 6 weeks. That was 400 x 42= $16,800. Medicare covered that because he was in a skilled nursing facility and they were rehabilitating him. The second time he went there, he was kind of forced to leave as he was there for an extended period of time but the Medicare benefits were running out and they felt he could go home. The bottom line was that they wanted the bed for a higher paying customer. He needed someone at home and the bills started to come in for his home health care because he could not be home alone. He was at home for a year and a half. We had to consider selling the house, but we were finally able to get some assistance because he did not have much income. This was a huge worry.

I write all of this to say that you can go through your savings and assets very quickly. If you should get Alzheimer's or dementia, you could have extended stays and leave you're spouse high and dry quite easily.

LTC has its place. If you have assets somewhere in the ballpark of $100,000 to $600,000 and you want to protect those funds from potential pocketbook clearing long term care needs. Many states like California have partnership LTC programs that allows you to protect assets you may have if you use up your LTC insurance. For example, if you have a partnership LTC policy and need care and your policy pays $300,000 for your care. If your policy runs out you can protect $300,000 of your assets not including your house and car. So if you had say, $400,000, all but $100,000 would be protected from the look back period to pay for your care and you could potentially receive Medicare if you qualify.

Yes, these policies can increase the premiums. However, all it takes is one lengthy stay and you can be wiped out. I have seen people have strokes and heart attacks and they are in great need of care for lengthy periods of time.

I am in education and live in California. CALPERS is a government retirement system. They are not an insurance company and their longterm care program was amongst the members who paid into it. They closed the LTC program because of the lack of funds to pay claims. They have continuously increased premiums because like the insurance companies they were negatively affected by the low interest rates of the banks and the increasing costs of long term care. CALPERS greatly underpriced their products. I considered them myself, but had other priorities in my forties and delayed in buying their LTC. I am glad I did.

There are a variety of ways to handle LTC. There are many moving parts that you need to be aware of. I have learned that you could get the exact same policy from two different companies and pay literally thousands of dollars difference. I would be happy to answer questions on this topic. I feel pretty comfortable. I can't refer you to anyone because that's not my business, but I will tell you to find an independent broker who can show you a few different companies rates so that you can get a good rate with a good strong company. I a policy with a company called Genworth. It's a comprehensive policy for 4 years at $200/day with a 5% compound interest to it. My wife has the same. We pay $2900/per year for both of our policies for nearly $600,000 of coverage. One thing I did check was the rate increase history for Genworth as it pertains to the partnership policy which is what I have. Genworth has never raised its premiums on their partnership policies in California. I did not say that will always be the case, but that's the way it has been so far. States with partnership policies encourage their residents to buy a policy. California tries to encourage this by not having the rates increase.

I hope this helps folks.
__________________
Carlos2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2013, 01:35 AM   #54
Dryer sheet aficionado
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 49
[QUOTE=Independent;1284644]Ouch!


I'd look at what a new, similar policy would cost today with another carrier (assuming your health is okay). Note that if the daily benefit was $162 in 1998, it may be $198 today due to your 5% increases, so that's what you need to replace.


If the daily benefit was $162 in 1998, with 5% compounded interest 15 years later the benefit would have doubled to around $325. That's a big difference.
__________________
Carlos2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2013, 02:44 AM   #55
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Koolau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Leeward Oahu
Posts: 3,244
Yes, if I had it to do over, knowing what I know now about the LTC companies' ability to double rates at will (with the blessing of the regulators, no less) I probably would not have bought in originally. But, it's sort of like a poker game where you have a lot in the pot. You may stay instead of fold. We've had our policies for about 14 years and rates have doubled. Still, looking at other companies, our rate is not available for the coverage. Will our rates go up again. Probably. But at our ages, it's likely we'll need coverage sooner rather than later. It's a tough situation, made more difficult by the economy and the incredible increases in the overall cost of health care in general and LTC specifically. What's a person to do? YMMV
__________________
Ko'olau's Law -

Anything which can be used can be misused. Anything which can be misused will be.
Koolau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2013, 08:20 AM   #56
Recycles dryer sheets
TOOLMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by bondi688 View Post
The Long Term Care Policy available at the Hemlock Society remains affordable.
IMHO - I am all for this option, but the problem parts are; "when to end" and "if self able to end". Final Exit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
__________________
TOOLMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2013, 09:02 AM   #57
Moderator
ziggy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koolau View Post
Yes, if I had it to do over, knowing what I know now about the LTC companies' ability to double rates at will (with the blessing of the regulators, no less) I probably would not have bought in originally. But, it's sort of like a poker game where you have a lot in the pot.
This is exactly why I have passed on the product and will continue to do so most likely, unless some form of cost certainty *and* solvency can be ensured. Still, that isn't realistic especially since that would likely mean only the government could backstop it (and no, not advocating that or even that this turn into a debate on that).

The current system really feels like bait and switch. You can buy into a product and pay it for 10-15 years, and then they can really jack up the rates and you can either drop the coverage, flushing your premiums already paid down the rathole (since you buy younger to lock in the lower rates, not because you're likely to need it under 60) or sucking it it and paying much higher premiums.
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)

RIP to Reemy, my avatar dog (2003 - 9/16/2017)
ziggy29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2013, 11:56 AM   #58
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos2 View Post
One thing I did check was the rate increase history for Genworth as it pertains to the partnership policy which is what I have. Genworth has never raised its premiums on their partnership policies in California. I did not say that will always be the case, but that's the way it has been so far. States with partnership policies encourage their residents to buy a policy. California tries to encourage this by not having the rates increase.

I hope this helps folks.
The problem is that your policy (and all the policies in CA) are very underpriced and over the long term there are two choices that the state and policyholders will face: allow an increase in rates, or risk the solvency of the insurer. In the face of CA's refusal to allow rate increases, I bet it is really tough to buy a new LTCI policy in CA.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2013, 12:08 PM   #59
gone traveling
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345 View Post
The problem is that your policy (and all the policies in CA) are very underpriced and over the long term there are two choices that the state and policyholders will face: allow an increase in rates, or risk the solvency of the insurer. In the face of CA's refusal to allow rate increases, I bet it is really tough to buy a new LTCI policy in CA.

i can't speak for all parts of the country but my wife and i bought 4 year policies
with GE-predecessor to GEnworth- in 2003. 150 dollars per day(about 220 now with 5 percent inflation factor). 50 day deductible. total for both of us 2700 dollars.

we have never had a price increase. I researched GE(genworth) 10 years ago and found them to be the most solvent/priced correctly policies.

from my research i found that they usually create a new plan and raise prices on those but rarely increase old policies.

will it be worth buying it.-i hope never to have to use it so i don't know.

i live in massachusetts
__________________
gerrym51 is offline   Reply With Quote
CA allows increases but...
Old 02-21-2013, 12:57 PM   #60
Dryer sheet aficionado
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 49
CA allows increases but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345 View Post
The problem is that your policy (and all the policies in CA) are very underpriced and over the long term there are two choices that the state and policyholders will face: allow an increase in rates, or risk the solvency of the insurer. In the face of CA's refusal to allow rate increases, I bet it is really tough to buy a new LTCI policy in CA.
Genworth was approved for an 18% increase in CA for some of their individual and group policies, but not their partnership policies.

CA allows increases, but they are not just giving insurers an automatic pass to raise their rates by 50 to 90 per cent.
__________________

__________________
Carlos2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:40 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.