Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-18-2007, 01:38 PM   #141
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 137
The estate tax like income tax should be progressive without all of the loop holes. The loop holes are what make our tax system so unfair. The average tax payer in the US does not make enough money to need the loop holes and if they did they could not afford the attorneys to set them up. People keep talking about the transfer of wealth. What about the average tax payer in the US who is paying their far share to support the government. It has been in the news recently there are about 5,000 high income US citizens who have set up off shore corporations to avoid US taxes. Now the real unfair transfer of wealth happens when the average US tax payer finances the infrastructure these crooks use while driving their cars on roads or flying their private. jets that the average tax payer paid for.
__________________

__________________
Freein05 is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 12-18-2007, 01:44 PM   #142
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,615
Freein5:
I agree 10% with the elimination of the loopholes. I think we'd differ in what constitutes a "fair share" since nearly 50% of people pay no net taxes at all. That, to me, isn't "fair" to those who are shouldering the burden. The folks who are taking advantage of the loopholes aren't "crooks", since they are obeying the law 100%. It is the law that is broken. No one is required to pay more than the law requires.
__________________

__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 01:48 PM   #143
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
Freein5:
I agree 10% with the elimination of the loopholes. I think we'd differ in what constitutes a "fair share" since nearly 50% of people pay no net taxes at all. That, to me, isn't "fair" to those who are shouldering the burden. The folks who are taking advantage of the loopholes aren't "crooks", since they are obeying the law 100%. It is the law that is broken. No one is required to pay more than the law requires.
Many laws are "broken" these days........and need fixing.........
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 01:51 PM   #144
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,281
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
Freein5:
I agree 10% with the elimination of the loopholes.
Well, I'll agree the remaining 90%

Quote:
I think we'd differ in what constitutes a "fair share" since nearly 50% of people pay no net taxes at all.
Honest question: Is that '50% pay no taxes' accurate? I think it means no 'income taxes'. They still pay SS and medicare and local sales taxes (and 'hidden taxes' in products that corporations must pass to the consumer).

Some of those income stats really bother me - aren't they based on 'filers' rather than the entire population? Not sure what to make of them.

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 02:43 PM   #145
Dryer sheet aficionado
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Are you playing the 'straight man' here?

Once again, I keep getting reinforcement on the idea of an NST. Look at all the problems it solves:

A) Would Paris be the poster child for inherited wealth arguments if she lived a modest life style, spending less than $30,000 per year? We would never have heard of her. So, tax spending.

B) Trader making money on short term cap gains versus the 'wage slave' earning an income and getting his W2 sent to the govt? No problem - tax spending and it all works out. The trader pays when he buys that new beemer, or that fancy dinner.

I really cannot think of a 'fairer' system that the NST (though I wish they would drop the self-promoting 'fairtax' name - nothing is ever truly 'fair').

-ERD50
<Plutocrat>
So you mean all I've got to do is earn my money in the US (no tax) and spend it outside the country? SWEEET! Canada here I come (6% GST)!
</Plutocrat>
__________________
jefipius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 02:49 PM   #146
Moderator Emeritus
Martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: minnesota
Posts: 13,212
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Oh well, 'liberal' is a no-good label

Quote:
Originally Posted by RetireeRobert View Post
Liberals don't want to be known as liberals. They seem to think it is libelous.
I am still bowing out of the estate tax discussion, but I did want to say that I am a liberal and I am proud to be a liberal and if you want to call me liberal Martha feel free.
__________________
.


No more lawyer stuff, no more political stuff, so no more CYA

Martha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 03:04 PM   #147
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Dawg52's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Central MS/Orange Beach, AL
Posts: 7,438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha View Post
I am still bowing out of the estate tax discussion, but I did want to say that I am a liberal and I am proud to be a liberal and if you want to call me liberal Martha feel free.
Ok. Liberal Martha. Hmmmm.........that wasn't so hard.
__________________
Retired 3/31/2007@52
Full time wuss.......
Dawg52 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 03:21 PM   #148
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Dawg52's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Central MS/Orange Beach, AL
Posts: 7,438
Oh yes, your one of my favorite posters on here. I guess the holiday season is getting the best of me.
__________________
Retired 3/31/2007@52
Full time wuss.......
Dawg52 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 03:37 PM   #149
Moderator Emeritus
Martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: minnesota
Posts: 13,212
Merry Christmas.
__________________
.


No more lawyer stuff, no more political stuff, so no more CYA

Martha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 04:15 PM   #150
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Rustic23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Lake Livingston, Tx
Posts: 3,624
I guess I should say I am opposed to the progressive tax system as we have it.

Our current tax system is forced charity. I believe in charity, I support our church and several other organizations. However, I feel it should be my choice as to who get my money and not some inefficient government agency.

IMHO a tax system that allows 50% of the population to pay no tax, and is some cases receive direct payments from the public is a corrupt system and should be changed. I have said elsewhere on this board, that the statement 'that democracy will fail when the people learn they can vote them self a piece of the treasury' (paraphrased) is true, and we are see the beginning of that failure now.
__________________
Rustic23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 05:58 PM   #151
Administrator
Gumby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 10,146
..
__________________
Living an analog life in the Digital Age.
Gumby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 06:08 PM   #152
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
bright eyed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,891
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic23 View Post
I guess I should say I am opposed to the progressive tax system as we have it.

Our current tax system is forced charity. I believe in charity, I support our church and several other organizations. However, I feel it should be my choice as to who get my money and not some inefficient government agency.
Well, a lot of great organizations that serve people for various reasons receive a majority of their support from government agencies, not private sources. And I can tell you that government grants are the most gigantic pain in the patooty ever - you have to give a very detailed accounting for every penny spent - so this is the area I would consider there is the least amount of waste going on.

There were many who were opposed to increasing the minimum wage - yet you don't see the consequence of keeping some people at such low incomes that they cannot afford decent housing, feed/cloth their children etc etc etc. So if you don't want to pay via taxes, than do you support increased wages?

Everyone on the "anti-taxes" side says "why can't i keep what i earn" - but what about those who are not earning enough to sustain a decent living? and none of us want to "live" with the consequences of a low-income community - stressed to the hilt, self-medicating w/ drugs and drink etc.etc...

Then, people don't want kids to be abused (physically or emotionally), starved or have other poor outcomes - which often can be ammeliorated by increasing their family income...so all these service agencies pop up to provide things that aren't provided - most often because of their family income status...

I absolutely believe that people have to take responsibility for their own lives - but I also understand how crazy life can be (and disfunction plus stress produces more disfunction, not less)- and these services help keep people off the streets, help babies stay healthy and parents stay sane....

Rustic, perhaps we have to force charity because you cannot assume everyone is like you and believes in it nor would support it at adequate levels to sustain the standard of living most people expect in the states. take away the safety nets and it will all come undone quite quickly.
__________________
If i think of something clever to say, i'll put it here...
bright eyed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 07:12 PM   #153
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 463
Well, top 10% net worth of US households is ~$1mm. Surely, the top 10% are "rich" and don't need to pass on all that money, do they? 55% of wealth above that level?

Median net worth of US households in 2000 was $55,000. Adjusted up to 2007 levels, surely the top half can help the bottom half? 55% of wealth above that level?

Anyone here in favor of either of those proposals? Or, lowering the tax rate until the 10% or median change becomes revenue-neutral??


The other thing I don't get is exemptions for farms and family businesses. Apparently, that is 'good' wealth, while owning, say, stock in a publically traded business or bonds is 'bad' wealth. :confused:
__________________
TickTock Rule Of Finance - heavily discount any promises of money/benefits to be paid to you in the future

"I've traded love for pennies, sold my soul for less" -Jim Croce, Age
TickTock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 07:19 PM   #154
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,615
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Honest question: Is that '50% pay no taxes' accurate? I think it means no 'income taxes'. They still pay SS and medicare and local sales taxes (and 'hidden taxes' in products that corporations must pass to the consumer).

Some of those income stats really bother me - aren't they based on 'filers' rather than the entire population? Not sure what to make of them.

-ERD50
Right, to be accurate i should have said "nearly 50% pay zero (or less) net federal income taxes."

The figures for 2006: (from The Tax Foundation - Number of Americans Paying Zero Federal Income Tax Grows to 43.4 Million).

"roughly 43.4 million tax returns, representing 91 million individuals, will face a zero or negative tax liability. That's out of a total of 136 million federal tax returns that will be filed. Adding to this figure the 15 million households and individuals who file no tax return at all, roughly 121 million Americans—or 41 percent of the U.S. population—will be completely outside the federal income tax system in 2006. This total includes those who pay no tax, and those who pay some tax upfront and are later refunded the full amount of the tax paid or more."

Note that the 15 million non-filing households are, according to another link, those who were not required to file because they don't earn enough. So, add in a lot more for people who don't file because they are breaking the law (What's the figure for illegal aliens--maybe 10-15 million? ) and I'll bet we're pushing 50% of the population.

None of this includes the effects of AFDC ("welfare"), food stamps, and other relief payments to people. If we include these payments, then the number of "net takers" would climb even farther. But, that is a tough argument to make, since nearly everybody is a recipient of government payments, goods, or services of some type.

Still, at least at the federal level, close to 50% of the people pay nothing or even receive money on tax day. Why would these people vote for a decrease in taxes? They are the a huge chunk of the electorate and they benefit by higher taxes. An inherently unstable situation that makes tax reform very difficult.
__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 07:39 PM   #155
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Rustic23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Lake Livingston, Tx
Posts: 3,624
When the government took over taking of the poor two classes of people were hurt. The givers and the receivers. Lyndon Johnson started the War On Poverty. That is not a political statement, just a statement of fact. Since then Trillions of dollars have been given to the poor to wipe our poverty, and it has not worked. All we succeeded in doing was creating a welfare state with more people, both the poor and the bureaucrats that run the programs living off the public doll. Taking more of my money and giving it away will not solve the problem of the poor. Never has, Never will.

Nothing bugs me more than the adds 'It's your money so be sure to file for your unearned tax credit'!
__________________
Rustic23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 07:45 PM   #156
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
youbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 9,965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha View Post
Merry Christmas.
Not very politically correct....... Isn't it "Happy Holidays" so that folks of non-Christian persuasions aren't offended?

Oh yeah....... Merry Christmas Martha!
__________________
"I wasn't born blue blood. I was born blue-collar." John Wort Hannam
youbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2007, 11:42 PM   #157
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 137
That so called 50% that do not pay taxes is false. Almost all states have a regressive sales tax that they pay. You are also forgetting another regressive tax that takes a big bite out of every working persons check and that is the Social Security and Medicare Tax.

I am happy I make enough money to pay taxes. Would you like to or would you be able to live on the income it takes to receive the earned income tax credit. Be serious! You also must mot be familiar with welfare payments today. They can only be collected for 5 years. I would also question any reports produced by The Tax Foundation. How do you expect people who do not even make enough money to live on to pay taxes? They only tell the half truth when they say 43% of Americans do not pay Federal Income tax. That may be true but they say nothing about the other taxes as stated above they pay. Which our all flat taxes.

I wish all of you Rich and Poor a Merry Christmas!
__________________
Freein05 is offline   Reply With Quote
An observation:
Old 12-19-2007, 08:32 AM   #158
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,281
An observation:

An observation:

(Martha, you can take your fingers out of your ears for a minute - this really shouldn't hurt - I promise )...

Some of us get pretty passionate about this topic, we get heated up and it does seem to get divisive at times. But I truly think that is because we are much, much more *alike* than we are different.

Most people on both sides of this issue really, really want the same thing (stay with me here ). Our hearts are torn when we see a story of a poor child in a poor home in a poor neighborhood with poor schools and little in the way of positive role models. We all know that kid has the deck stacked against them. It is sad.

Now, the difference that I see is:

A) Some of us feel that some strict redistribution of wealth administered by the government is a big part of the solution.

B) Some of us feel that 'A' is actually counter-productive, and creates more long term misery than it solves.

So we want the same thing - we differ on the best approach.

There will always be anecdotal evidence to support either view. You can't test the theories in a petri dish. We can look to countries with strong socialist histories, but there may be too many variables to come to conclusions.

Peace on Earth - ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 08:57 AM   #159
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 595
Quote:
Originally Posted by bright eyed View Post
Everyone on the "anti-taxes" side says "why can't i keep what i earn" - but what about those who are not earning enough to sustain a decent living? and none of us want to "live" with the consequences of a low-income community - stressed to the hilt, self-medicating w/ drugs and drink etc.etc...

Then, people don't want kids to be abused (physically or emotionally), starved or have other poor outcomes - which often can be ammeliorated by increasing their family income...so all these service agencies pop up to provide things that aren't provided - most often because of their family income status...

I absolutely believe that people have to take responsibility for their own lives - but I also understand how crazy life can be (and disfunction plus stress produces more disfunction, not less)- and these services help keep people off the streets, help babies stay healthy and parents stay sane....

Rustic, perhaps we have to force charity because you cannot assume everyone is like you and believes in it nor would support it at adequate levels to sustain the standard of living most people expect in the states. take away the safety nets and it will all come undone quite quickly.
Ok... there are just a few problems with the above thinking bright eyed. I do value your opinions, but I disagree with a few things here.

While it is a nice idea the thought of the govt being able to take care of "everyone", it is really just not possible. It is completely impossible to create a society where no one is poor, or suffering, or ill. When people suggest the very notion that povery can be eliminated... they are either trying to get money from you, or are not thinking clearly. A more constructive and realistic conversation might be, for a prosperous healthy democracy, what should the percentage of poverty be? 2%, 5%, 10%? As a matter of fact you might even use such statistics to go about figuring out how "healthy" an economy is by such figures.
You also mention "what about those who are not earning enough to sustain a decent living?" My question to you would be.... why are they not earning enough? For every reason you can give me why they are unable to do any better for themselves, I can give you three other things they could do to try to legally earn more money. How is my giving others more money that I had to work hard for, going to help their situation other than in some temporary way? I would be in favor of more tax money going for free education classes, that would at least help to "teach a man to fish" vs. giving a man a "fish".
I guess the point that I am trying to make here, is that while it is a great and noble idea to want to be able to help people, the one question that always gets overlooked, is "at what cost"? If you try to eliminate the poor class by bankrupting everyone else to do it, then obviously that was not a smart move. If you raise taxes for more programs in education, and you can prove that over a number of years that program graduated folks that went on to be self sufficiant, then maybe that was a wise use of the money.
__________________
armor99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 09:19 AM   #160
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by armor99 View Post
If you raise taxes for more programs in education, and you can prove that over a number of years that program graduated folks that went on to be self sufficiant, then maybe that was a wise use of the money.
Isn't that what "No child left behind" was supposed to do?
__________________

__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Those Who Tithe, What About Inheritance? retiringby50 FIRE and Money 22 12-08-2007 11:23 PM
inheritance Moemg FIRE and Money 36 11-05-2007 02:36 PM
Impending Inheritance - What to do! Jon Snow Hi, I am... 4 03-11-2007 12:31 AM
Anyone expecting an inheritance? laurence Young Dreamers 77 03-03-2007 03:42 PM
not only no inheritance... Khan FIRE and Money 10 12-31-2006 06:47 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:36 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.