Inversion countdown

It suggests a recession is around the corner. No need to start hoarding your bread and eyeing the family pets with future meals in mind; just don't go running out and buying speculative equities and so forth.
 
brewer12345 said:
It suggests a recession is around the corner. No need to start hoarding your bread and eyeing the family pets with future meals in mind; just don't go running out and buying speculative equities and so forth.

brewer:

I think I heard the Fed is talking up "inversions don't matter" too. :D

What a great country.

--Greg
 
I have read those comments too. Also of note is that they will no longer be publishing M3 as of March 23, 2006.... I had hoped to keep an eye on it (as well as M3 velocity)....
 
How about intermediate-term bond funds? I'm tired of watching my NAVs drop month after month.

brewer12345 said:
It suggests a recession is around the corner.  No need to start hoarding your bread and eyeing the family pets with future meals in mind; just don't go running out and buying speculative equities and so forth.
 
soupcxan said:
How about intermediate-term bond funds? I'm tired of watching my NAVs drop month after month.

If you can time it right, really long treasuries are the exactly perfect investment (that and short equities/bear mutual dunds). But its tough to time these things and in the mean time LT treasuries involve a lot of interest rate risk. I think medium term bonds are probably a good compromise and in any case make a nice addition to most diversified portfolios. I personally own GIM and am slowly adding exchange traded bonds and preferreds.
 
soupcxan said:
How about intermediate-term bond funds? I'm tired of watching my NAVs drop month after month.

Soup: You may just want to hang on to those things and wait for the price to go back up. Or even add some extra money now or some time in the near future. Someone here may have a bond book that they might recommend (I have an old copy of All About Bonds and Bond Mutual Funds by Esme Faerber, but there are probably better ones out there)? This is from the THE BOND GURU:

http://www.pimco.com/LeftNav/Late+Breaking+Commentary/IO/2005/IO+December+2005.htm

Good Luck (and skill), bond knowledge is at least as important as stock knowledge--if not more so--because that's where your safe money lives ;).

--Greg
 
I largely agree. The rrecent desperatte attempts by he administration to revive its pathetic poll numbers should not be seen as anything but political chicanery.I also think that the underlying problem is that the economy as a whole and especially corporate profits appear to be OK (not great, but not bad), but the "real economy" of Joe Sixpack and the average consumer is somewhat weak. Median income is down over the past 4 years despite overall economic growth. What does that tell you? Hard to see how there can be a big economic party when a lot of recent growth has been based on increasing income and wealth stratification.
 
Bouncing around flat now. We go solidly inverted (like 10 BP for a week) and I think it is time to take this stuff seriously. Maybe time to buy some QQQQ puts...
 
Turned on CNBC today, saw the inversion news and said, "I'll have to check in with brewer!" upon which my friends/family said, "who's brewer?" :p. ;)
 
Laurence said:
Turned on CNBC today, saw the inversion news and said, "I'll have to check in with brewer!" upon which my friends/family said, "who's brewer?"  :p;)

Heheh, you should know better than to pay attention to CNBC! They have it on here at work all the time - drives me nuts.
 
OK, so what % of the time that there has been an inversion did a recession occur? Any statistics or correlation on how much iversion and how big a recession?
I'm sort of a bear but I don't knwo when the adjustment is due and whether it will be a short sharp contaction or a long slow one. Any clue from looking at the inversion tea leaves?
 
From Al's link:

"Inverted yield curves are rare. Never ignore them. They are always followed by economic slowdown — or outright recession — as well as lower interest rates across the board."

I'm not sure I would go quite that far, but inversion is clearly nothing to sneeze that. I am increasingly thinking that I will be buying some cheap, out of the money QQQ puts soon.
 
brewer12345 said:
"Inverted yield curves are rare. Never ignore them. They are always followed by economic slowdown — or outright recession — as well as lower interest rates across the board."
So what happened the LAST time the yield curve inverted? How long did we have to wait for the recession?

Or is this a situation where a three-handed economist had eight opinions predicting six of the last four recessions?
 
Al,
Loved the animated yield curve. Today's looks more like 'Flat" than "inverted". The applet sure brought home the point that the yield curve is a pretty dynamic beast, though.
 
Nords said:
So what happened the LAST time the yield curve inverted?  How long did we have to wait for the recession? 

Or is this a situation where a three-handed economist had eight opinions predicting six of the last four recessions?

I think thatan inversion has predicted the proverbial 8 out of the last 5 recessions. However, if you look at the last few recessions, the yield curve was well inverted 6 to 12 months before the siht hit the fan.
 
Nords said:
So what happened the LAST time the yield curve inverted?  How long did we have to wait for the recession? 

Or is this a situation where a three-handed economist had eight opinions predicting six of the last four recessions?

The last inversion occurred in early 2000 with the 30-year yield falling below the 10-year. At the time, everyone blamed "technical" factors in the bond market. The US government was running a surplus and the Treasury decided to stop issuing 30-year bonds creating scarcity value in the long-end of the treasury curve. No problem, right?

Historically, the yield curve has been a pretty good indicator of economic weakness 12 months forward. I think the record is that it has only given two false signals in the past 50 years. But after each of those "false signals" the economy did slow and, in one case, GDP went negative for one quarter (not an official recession).

Although its track record is good, I'm a bit of a skeptic when it comes to using the yield curve as a crystal ball. The long-bond market is a financial market, like any other. I'm not sure why bond traders and investors are any more prescient when it comes to these things than investors in any other market.

However, the yield curve does have practical implications for the profitability of financial institutions that tend to "ride the curve" by borrowing short and lending long. The same is true for hedge funds that have exploited a very steep yield curve in the past and have been using cheap money to juice returns. So it makes sense that higher short rates will squeeze some companies' profitability, which could lead to a slow down.

The yield curve will "normalize" at some point. The relevant question for investors is whether it normalizes because a recession forces the fed to cut short rates or because the economy continues to power forward and forces the long yield to rise?
 
. . . Yrs to Go said:
Although its track record is good, I'm a bit of a skeptic when it comes to using the yield curve as a crystal ball.  The long-bond market is a financial market, like any other.  I'm not sure why bond traders and investors are any more prescient when it comes to these things than investors in any other market. 

Track record is good? It's track record is great! What else has been so successful over the last 50 years? That's an amazing record I think. If nothing else then it may serve as a self fullfilling prophesy. Consider the size of the bond market (5X stocks I think), if all that money, which tends to be conservative money, thinks things aren't looking so good, then either it's probably right, or it'll help the prophesy along.

Curve inverted again late yesterday ...
 
I recall seeing a study someone had posted or linked to. I believe the main point was the longer the yield curve is inverted, and the higher the degree of inversion, the worse it gets for our economy (that is based on the 2yr-10yr spread).

Based on that, I'm not worried about an off-again on-again 5-10 basis point inversion. Unless it gets steeper or lasts for a long time.
 
justin said:
I recall seeing a study someone had posted or linked to.  I believe the main point was the longer the yield curve is inverted, and the higher the degree of inversion, the worse it gets for our economy (that is based on the 2yr-10yr spread). 

Based on that, I'm not worried about an off-again on-again 5-10 basis point inversion.  Unless it gets steeper or lasts for a long time. 

Justin,

Would you change your asset allocation if we did have a steep inversion curve ?

I moved most of my assets into short term treasuries about a year ago. I'm sure my returns would have been better in 2005 if I had stayed with my asset allocation of 70/30 stocks to bonds.

I still think there are some really negative warnings out there regarding the economy. I hate to admit that I am market timing, but I am ...

I hope I don't continue this trend. I really would like to stay with an asset allocation plan, but I really believe the bubble moved from the tech sector to the housing sector and that the situation is even worse now than it was in 2001.

I will reach my magic FI number with a 5% return, so I think I can ride this out a few years with conservative investments. If I'm wrong I can still retire in 7.5 years and if I'm right I can still retire in 7.5 years.

All my new taxable money is going into I bonds and my Government 401k (TSP) money is totally in the G fund (short term securities).

-helen
 
Helen said:
I still think there are some really negative warnings out there regarding the economy.  I hate to admit that I am market timing, but I am ...

I hope I don't continue this trend.  I really would like to stay with an asset allocation plan,

I think that if things get rough, and stay that way for a while, a lot of people who didn't think they were market timers will dsicover that they are.

Unfortunately, many of them will discover that they are poor market timers.

Remember-- he who panics first panics best.

Ha- happy to be called a market timer.
 
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