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Old 08-02-2014, 09:17 AM   #41
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It's a trade off as there is always something that one can buy that is nicer, better, or makes life easier or more enjoyable. However many people I think get real enjoyment out of seeing their bank account numbers and/or experience mental pain at spending cash (I have this problem). In this case perhaps the minor utility increase is outweighed by the mental joy of keeping our money.


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Old 08-02-2014, 12:58 PM   #42
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Seems it is all very subjective as has been said before in this thread. Just in case I went to look up "sacrifice" in m-w:

"to give up (something that you want to keep) especially in order to get or do something else or to help someone"

I was expecting sacrifice to be something more serious than just being associated with "want", so I guess giving up or trading off anything you want to keep qualifies as a sacrifice.

An interesting point in the definition is that sacrifice means it is something you already have and you would be giving up, not something you will or may want to get in the future. So by whatever subjective thought process you obtain something and then you choose to give that up in exchange for something else, only that is a sacrifice.

So a lot of subjectivity in many of the items. If you have been used to driving a relatively new BMW all your working life and then you give that up for driving a relatively new Accord (since that would allow you to live within your retirement budget) may be a sacrifice. If all your working life you have been used to driving a relatively new Accord but you think you would want to drive a relatively new BMW, but you realize that would break your retirement budget so you don't do it, maybe that is not a sacrifice since you never actually had it to give up.

I believe it is generally much more difficult to give up something you already have and are used to in exchange for something you believe inferior than to not get what you may want more. But different people may interpret differently.
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Old 08-02-2014, 03:49 PM   #43
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Not doable. Frugality means spending less money, which means not getting what that money can buy. You may not care what some others spend money on (BMW, for example), but I'm sure that money can buy something you like too. Not getting something you like is a sacrifice. Therefore by definition frugality means sacrifice, not that sacrifice is a bad thing to be avoided.
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Old 08-02-2014, 04:17 PM   #44
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Not doable. Frugality means spending less money, which means not getting what that money can buy. You may not care what some others spend money on (BMW, for example), but I'm sure that money can buy something you like too. Not getting something you like is a sacrifice. Therefore by definition frugality means sacrifice, not that sacrifice is a bad thing to be avoided.
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Old 08-02-2014, 04:20 PM   #45
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When I was growing up my mother constantly reminded me of all the sacrifices she and my father had made in order to ensure that I had the best possible education. We were actually solidly middle class, but we lived frugally. I lived with guilt, too, and tremendous pressure to succeed.
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Old 08-02-2014, 04:29 PM   #46
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Not doable. Frugality means spending less money, which means not getting what that money can buy. You may not care what some others spend money on (BMW, for example), but I'm sure that money can buy something you like too. Not getting something you like is a sacrifice. Therefore by definition frugality means sacrifice, not that sacrifice is a bad thing to be avoided.
I think the part that's missing is that you can like saving and you can like what that saving will make possible. So not buying something you like is not a sacrifice if the not-buying enables something you like more - perhaps more leisure time, retiring earlier, whatever. I would disagree that frugality means sacrifice.
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Old 08-02-2014, 04:37 PM   #47
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Warren Buffet is frugal. License place "THRIFTY". You think he suffers?

It is all relative.....
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Old 08-02-2014, 05:22 PM   #48
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I think the part that's missing is that you can like saving and you can like what that saving will make possible. So not buying something you like is not a sacrifice if the not-buying enables something you like more - perhaps more leisure time, retiring earlier, whatever. I would disagree that frugality means sacrifice.
Agree 100%.
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Old 08-02-2014, 06:00 PM   #49
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I think the part that's missing is that you can like saving and you can like what that saving will make possible. So not buying something you like is not a sacrifice if the not-buying enables something you like more - perhaps more leisure time, retiring earlier, whatever. I would disagree that frugality means sacrifice.
To a point -- I agree that frugality and sacrifice are not synonyms. To the extent someone has the financial means to not *need* to be so frugal but feels compelled to be even though it bothers them, it may not be optimal. That said, I know of many folks who have a passionate "hobby" of saving money, and for them finding ways to be more frugal is actually pleasurable. If that's you (or anyone else reading), there's no problem as long as it doesn't compromise personal relationships.
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Old 08-02-2014, 07:28 PM   #50
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I think the part that's missing is that you can like saving and you can like what that saving will make possible. So not buying something you like is not a sacrifice if the not-buying enables something you like more - perhaps more leisure time, retiring earlier, whatever. I would disagree that frugality means sacrifice.
Having something positive doesn't make the sacrifice go away. Whenever you make a sacrifice, you are always sacrificing *for something*. You can look at that something -- more leisure time, retiring earlier, whatever -- and say the sacrifice is worth it. It doesn't mean you didn't sacrifice. Sacrifice is good. It gets you what you want more.
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Old 08-03-2014, 09:57 AM   #51
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Not doable. Frugality means spending less money, which means not getting what that money can buy.
No, it doesn't. Your definition doesn't jive with almost every post in this thread.
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Old 08-03-2014, 10:04 AM   #52
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Frugality without sacrifice is absolutely possible. It's a matter of managing expectations and making choices.
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Old 08-03-2014, 10:26 AM   #53
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Not doable. Frugality means spending less money, which means not getting what that money can buy. You may not care what some others spend money on (BMW, for example), but I'm sure that money can buy something you like too. Not getting something you like is a sacrifice. Therefore by definition frugality means sacrifice, not that sacrifice is a bad thing to be avoided.
+1

Exactly.
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Old 08-03-2014, 11:09 AM   #54
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Not doable. Frugality means spending less money, which means not getting what that money can buy. You may not care what some others spend money on (BMW, for example), but I'm sure that money can buy something you like too. Not getting something you like is a sacrifice. Therefore by definition frugality means sacrifice, not that sacrifice is a bad thing to be avoided.
It does not follow that frugality means sacrifice. Frugality is a quantifiable concept. Either one lives below one's means, or one does not. Sacrifice is a subjective feeling of deprivation. A purchase forgone may feel like a sacrifice to one individual but may be no sacrifice at all to another.

For example, if I could not afford to travel, to me, that would be a sacrifice. To someone like W2R, it would probably be no sacrifice at all. OTOH, many forum members own quite a lot of expensive camera equipment. I'm sure that many of them would consider it a sacrifice not to be able to afford it. Not having such equipment is no sacrifice to me. I choose to spend that money in other ways, or to save it.
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Old 08-03-2014, 11:15 AM   #55
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It does not follow that frugality means sacrifice. Frugality is a quantifiable concept. Either one lives below one's means, or one does not.
You can be frugal while living above or below your means.
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Sacrifice is a subjective feeling of deprivation.
No. You can "sacrifice" one fun activity for another. "I sacrificed going to the ballgame on Saturday to avoid a conflict with attending the play." Both activities were desirable. You had to sacrifice one in order to do the other.
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A purchase forgone may feel like a sacrifice to one individual but may be no sacrifice at all to another.
Yes for sure. Particularly on this board, the joy of not spending is so great for many that it is hard to imagine how they could ever do anything in life without feelings of remorse from having let go of a nickle........
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Old 08-03-2014, 12:32 PM   #56
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I buy as many books as I can find on how to live well without spending a lot of money. I am not sure you have to sacrifice to be frugal. If you get free comp tickets to see a play because the play has not sold out and the director wants to to fill seats, that is not a sacrifice, that is just taking some time to know where to look to see what web site the play management posts the comp tickets at. The time to research where the tickets get posted and scoring the bargains is half the fun.

Or using Staples coupons to get a years supply of free dish detergent. That doesn't necessarily require sacrifice. It just means going to forums where the Staples experts hang out and reading their tips on how to do that.

Getting free miles or cash back on credit cards does not take much time and can generate thousands a year in free travel or cash back. On Black Friday I did some sign up bonuses for saving and checking accounts for the family and made $950 for an hour or two of work.

I found a public library in another state I could join for a nominal fee that has a free online movies, how to videos, ebooks, free music and videos you can keep, audio books and a couple of popular online tech training course subscriptions that would cost $50 a month to subscribe to individually.

Our water department gives out water saving kits for free with items like low flow shower heads, garden nozzles and faucet aerators. It isn't a sacrifice to stop by when we are doing errands that way anyway and pick up the kit.

It does cost time to do some research, but many people have hobbies that cost money, like golf or photography, so if bargain hunting is fun for you like it is for me it is not a sacrifice at all, it is a fun hobby.
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Old 08-04-2014, 06:54 AM   #57
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In many cases I find the cheaper option is actually superior to the expensive one.

- Playing baseball with friends is a lot more fun than watching a professional team.
- Backpacking vacations are much more intense and rewarding than going on a cruise.
- Food prepared at home is much healthier than restaurant food.

In cases like these I would say that spending is actually the sacrifice.
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Old 08-04-2014, 11:30 AM   #58
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No, it doesn't. Your definition doesn't jive with almost every post in this thread.
For the right sort of person, there is no such thing as sacrifice. We actually enjoy sacrifice. After all, our great leader got nailed to a cross though he was all powerful.

Which I assume implies that he could have nailed those Romans to the cross instead. Or just drowned them, or given them all really bad diarrhea.
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Old 08-05-2014, 04:22 PM   #59
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As with most things, the answer for me is 'balance' and 'flexibility.' We spend a lot on travel because we enjoy it immensely. If necessary, we could reduce it to zero. We spend a lot on our house {change to: have a cabin in the mountains} because we enjoy living going there. If necessary, we could downsize and cut that in half or more sell it. We spend a lot eating out at nice restaurants with good friends because life is too short to eat beans by yourself at home. If necessary, we could go to zero on that as well.

So again, we spend freely on discretionary items that bring us enjoyment and enrich our lives, knowing that we can cut them out when and if needed. But the basic day-to-day, fixed living expenses, and other items (like cars) that we don't place as much value on, are carefully managed to optimize cost/benefit without sacrificing anything.
+1 with my edits. I think we are frugal because we save 30% of our income; but we make pretty good money and spend quite a lot. But I drive a Saturn; I bring my lunch to work most days, we are not "shoppers". We live in the townhouse I bought 15 years ago and will stay there until we retire in 12 years.

If you think that makes me frugal, then yes, I don't feel like we are sacrificing to be frugal.
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Old 08-05-2014, 04:34 PM   #60
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Of course some people can be frugal without sacrifice, like some people can run without hating every minute of it.
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