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Old 06-19-2010, 03:09 PM   #21
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I kind of liked Welch's observation that politiocos are more interested in finding scapegoats than in fixes. The way I see it is, if the problem is fixed, then politiocos can not spend their time grandstanding in useless hearings.

He can't be all that bad if he was able to get GE to pay for his laundry, and free transport on GE's air force, among other bennies.
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Old 06-19-2010, 07:54 PM   #22
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Where the government fell down, IMO, is in the clean-up effort.
A second place where they fell down, IMO, is in not having a first-strike containment plan in place if/when all the safeguards fail. Same with coal mines - the equipment to get those miners out was days away, and they had 4 hours of oxygen.

We have building codes and fire inspections of big buildings, but that doesn't mean we decide we don't need a fire department. The regulators should have forced that containment equipment is no more than X hours away to minimize the inevitable blow-out.

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Old 06-19-2010, 09:27 PM   #23
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A second place where they fell down, IMO, is in not having a first-strike containment plan in place if/when all the safeguards fail. Same with coal mines - the equipment to get those miners out was days away, and they had 4 hours of oxygen.

We have building codes and fire inspections of big buildings, but that doesn't mean we decide we don't need a fire department. The regulators should have forced that containment equipment is no more than X hours away to minimize the inevitable blow-out.

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Of course, industry tends to resist, because it's expensive. Apparently, it's cheaper to ad hoc.
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Old 06-19-2010, 09:44 PM   #24
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Of course, industry tends to resist, because it's expensive. Apparently, it's cheaper to ad hoc.
Agreed - and that is where regulation comes in. When an industry can 'get away' with something that isn't open and transparent to the consumer (we really can't be expected to know about the safety measures in place at for the products we buy), then some regulating body (not necessarily the govt) needs to take that on.

Ship shoddy product and people will eventually figure it out. But looking at product on the shelf doesn't tell me anything about the safeguards that company has in place to protect against x,y,z disaster. And if we have to rely on regulators to define and enforce those standards, then the regulators also need to be taken to task when things 'go sour'. Maybe the govt should pay BPs dividends to the Norwegian Widows? (Not really serious about that - just a thought exercise).

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Old 06-20-2010, 09:10 AM   #25
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Agreed - and that is where regulation comes in. When an industry can 'get away' with something that isn't open and transparent to the consumer (we really can't be expected to know about the safety measures in place at for the products we buy), then some regulating body (not necessarily the govt) needs to take that on.

Self regulation

Three cheers for more regulation! Boo, on doctrinaire libertarianism!
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Old 06-20-2010, 09:38 AM   #26
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Oh, and best as I can tell the calls to "fix the problem first and cast blame latter" only applies to criticism cast at BP. Apparently assigning blame to the President is OK.
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Old 06-20-2010, 10:00 AM   #27
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RE: then some regulating body (not necessarily the govt)


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Self regulation

Three cheers for more regulation! Boo, on doctrinaire libertarianism!
Geez, I merely left the door open to options. I don't think in black & white terms on the issue. Sometimes, regulating bodies outside the government do an exemplary job. Sometimes a combination might be best. We ought to use whatever tool works, and not shut the door on any solution.

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Oh, and best as I can tell the calls to "fix the problem first and cast blame latter" only applies to criticism cast at BP. Apparently assigning blame to the President is OK.
Who are you talking to

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Old 06-20-2010, 10:12 AM   #28
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Who are you talking to

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Not you. It's more the whole premise of the thread, as summed up here . . .

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Reviewed his comments. Found them to be straightforward and common sense. He is direct and on the money. Fix the problem. Blame later. But all government knows how to do is blame.
So fix the problem, assign blame later, and yet the CNBC interview that started this thread is titled . . .

Obama Managing Crisis 'Horribly': Jack Welch

here's the first paragraph . . .
Quote:
The Obama administration has utterly mismanaged the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico and it has been "horrible" at crisis management, Jack Welch, former CEO of General Electric, told CNBC. "Here's the difference between a businessman and a politician: Businessmen focus on solutions. Politicians focus on 'who can we blame?'"
Nice to see the "businessman" assigning blame to politicians for not being more like businessmen who don't assign blame. It's not every day you see someone's opening argument so completely self-contradictory. It's quite a feat, really.
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Old 06-20-2010, 11:02 AM   #29
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...Nice to see the "businessman" assigning blame to politicians for not being more like businessmen who don't assign blame. It's not every day you see someone's opening argument so completely self-contradictory. It's quite a feat, really.
And Jack seemed to miss the fact that the other Oilco executives played the blame game when before Congress. Oh yeah, I guess those business CEOs are really politicians too.
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Old 06-20-2010, 01:16 PM   #30
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... It's more the whole premise of the thread, as summed up here . . .



So fix the problem, assign blame later, and yet the CNBC interview that started this thread is titled . . .

Obama Managing Crisis 'Horribly': Jack Welch

here's the first paragraph . . .
Nice to see the "businessman" assigning blame to politicians for not being more like businessmen who don't assign blame. It's not every day you see someone's opening argument so completely self-contradictory. It's quite a feat, really.
I'm certain there is blame to be placed (and probably deserved) on both sides, BP & the regulators. Now, w/o commenting specifically on what Jack Welch has said, I will say that in general I don't see a contradiction in that sort of statement.

It makes sense to me that an outside observer could look at a situation, and see that the steps being taken are not the appropriate ones. And if some of those inappropriate steps are focusing too much time/effort on 'blame', it isn't a contradiction to point that out. It's not 'blaming the blamers', it is an observation geared towards problem resolution.

I'll stay out of whether it is an accurate observation in this case, I'm just talking about the general case.

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Old 06-21-2010, 09:50 AM   #31
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If the well is self-destructing due to the pressures down there, two relief wells are the only hope and even then it is working against the clock. The tilt on the 450 ton BOP indicates that the well substructure is already eroding. Will it last two more months?
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Old 06-21-2010, 09:55 AM   #32
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Apparently assigning blame to the President is OK.
It certainly WAS from 2000-2008............
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Old 06-21-2010, 11:02 AM   #33
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I'm certain there is blame to be placed (and probably deserved) on both sides, BP & the regulators. Now, w/o commenting specifically on what Jack Welch has said, I will say that in general I don't see a contradiction in that sort of statement.

It makes sense to me that an outside observer could look at a situation, and see that the steps being taken are not the appropriate ones. And if some of those inappropriate steps are focusing too much time/effort on 'blame', it isn't a contradiction to point that out. It's not 'blaming the blamers', it is an observation geared towards problem resolution.

I'll stay out of whether it is an accurate observation in this case, I'm just talking about the general case.

-ERD50
Yes, forgive me for blaming the blamers. So clearly a circular argument on my part.

But I'm not the one who talked about finding out whose ass needed kicking. I'm not the one who held grandstanding congressional hearings so we could beat up BP and cast blame in all directions on behalf of the people.

A time for balming will most certainly arise. It seems both government and business will have much to answer for. I'm fairly certain business will most definitly answer for it although much less certain about the government accountability.

But over all that, focus all energy on fixing the blowout and cleaning the mess. Do that now! Don't waste energy elsewise until these things are accomplished. That is what I believe was the main thrust of the article and a message I certainly agree with.

That message somehow bothers our resident government defender G4G. That just tells me its a message on the right track.
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Old 06-21-2010, 11:23 AM   #34
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I had a lot of respect for Jack Welch when he was running GE; lost all that respect and shifted to loathing over the last-minute pension shenanigans and his antics with his mistress.
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Old 06-21-2010, 11:26 AM   #35
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That message somehow bothers our resident government defender G4G.
89 posts and somehow I'm "our" government defender? Why don't you hang around the block a little longer before you start taking pot shots at some long-time residents.
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Old 06-21-2010, 11:27 AM   #36
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That message somehow bothers our resident government defender G4G. That just tells me its a message on the right track.
I hereby nominate MuirWannabe for FIRE poster-of-the-month for June, 2010, with all accolades and accreditations afforded therein.
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Old 06-21-2010, 11:52 AM   #37
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Oh, and best as I can tell the calls to "fix the problem first and cast blame latter" only applies to criticism cast at BP. Apparently assigning blame to the President is OK.
BP is clearly to blame for the spill, don't think anyone is disputing that, including BP. Big issue is that due process should determine civil penalties, not media hysteria and political gamesmanship.

The leadership failure in response to this crisis is abominable, IMO. We're getting political rhetoric rather than positive results, with no indication that will change anytime soon.
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Old 06-21-2010, 11:58 AM   #38
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89 posts and somehow I'm "our" government defender? Why don't you hang around the block a little longer before you start taking pot shots at some long-time residents.
Are you saying credibility is correlated to post counts

To me, a valid comment is a valid comment, even (especially?) from a first time poster. Of course, 'validity' must be judged by each of us. Methinks a nerve was touched G4G.

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Old 06-21-2010, 12:31 PM   #39
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Are you saying credibility is correlated to post counts

To me, a valid comment is a valid comment, even (especially?) from a first time poster. Of course, 'validity' must be judged by each of us. Methinks a nerve was touched G4G.

-ERD50
Gee, as I see it, I commented on an idea and got a personal attack in return. And from someone I don't recall ever being introduced to.

Whatever. Have a nice day.
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Old 06-21-2010, 12:35 PM   #40
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Jack Welch makes my skin crawl!

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