Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 05-06-2010, 11:42 AM   #21
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: VA
Posts: 923
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords View Post
Kaneohe's too polite to say that you need to back up your flat assertions with links or data.

Otherwise you're just talking trash. You may be right, but it's still trash.
On a case we did in November last year. 70 year old male, 63 year old female, assuming perfect health. $4500 monthly benefit, 5% compound inflation rider, 3 year benefit period, shared care rider (if not a standard benefit), 0-day elimination period for home health care, 90 day elimination period otherwise, paid-up survivorship benefit.

Genworth - $5,4xx
John Hancock - $6,3xx
Guardian - $10,2xx

The 5% inflation rider with Guardian (~$4,400/year) was nearly the entire cost of the whole Genworth policy with nearly identical benefits.
__________________

__________________
dgoldenz is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 05-19-2010, 06:37 PM   #22
Confused about dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaneohe View Post
Is there an easy way to find these prices to compare?

Yes, it's very easy to compare rates. I have the rates of every company on my computer, and it is as simple as a click of the mouse.

Also, dgoldenz is incorrect that John Hancock has been priced lower than mutual companies for years. 2 mutual companies, Mass Mutual and Guardian--- have better pricing than John Hancock's current rates pre rate increase. Now that John Hancock is increasing its pricing structure, Mass Mutual and Guardian will be significantly less expensive than John Hancock. The only mutual company that was priced higher than John Hancock was Northwestern. John Hancock really hasn't had tremendous pricing since 2000-2002. Genworth is the one company that has had competitive pricing consistantly for the past decade.

John Hancock is revising its pricing on policies opting for 5% compound benefit increases due to the low interest rate environment and the reserve requirements.

It will be interesting to see how Genworth, Mass Mutual, and Guardian react to Hancock's move over the next 2-4 years. Met Life also changed it's pricing on policies including 5% compound increases 1 year ago. So the trend is going in this direction.

It will be also interesting to see how the brokers react because mutual companies like Guardian and Mass Mutual do not pay as high of a commission as companies like Genworth and John Hancock. Genworth of course should beenfit with the brokers, but if consumers are looking to be with A+/A++ companies, Guardian and Mass Mutual should see business pick up. If the brokers, of course, want to take a commission hit.
__________________

__________________
JackLenenberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2010, 07:23 PM   #23
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: VA
Posts: 923
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackLenenberg View Post
Yes, it's very easy to compare rates. I have the rates of every company on my computer, and it is as simple as a click of the mouse.

Also, dgoldenz is incorrect that John Hancock has been priced lower than mutual companies for years. 2 mutual companies, Mass Mutual and Guardian--- have better pricing than John Hancock's current rates pre rate increase. Now that John Hancock is increasing its pricing structure, Mass Mutual and Guardian will be significantly less expensive than John Hancock. The only mutual company that was priced higher than John Hancock was Northwestern. John Hancock really hasn't had tremendous pricing since 2000-2002. Genworth is the one company that has had competitive pricing consistantly for the past decade.

John Hancock is revising its pricing on policies opting for 5% compound benefit increases due to the low interest rate environment and the reserve requirements.

It will be interesting to see how Genworth, Mass Mutual, and Guardian react to Hancock's move over the next 2-4 years. Met Life also changed it's pricing on policies including 5% compound increases 1 year ago. So the trend is going in this direction.

It will be also interesting to see how the brokers react because mutual companies like Guardian and Mass Mutual do not pay as high of a commission as companies like Genworth and John Hancock. Genworth of course should beenfit with the brokers, but if consumers are looking to be with A+/A++ companies, Guardian and Mass Mutual should see business pick up. If the brokers, of course, want to take a commission hit.
I get paid within 5% of each other for Guardian and JH/Genworth....a good agent will place the business with the company that fits best regardless of commission anyway. How are you coming up with rates for Guardian lower than a comparable policy with John Hancock? The base rates may be similar, but add on a few of the important benefit riders and the Guardian price goes through the roof. See the example I posted and re-run it yourself.

Also, you having the rates on your computer doesn't help the average consumer find instant quotes online without talking to an agent first. That said, LTC is a complicated product and your average consumer shouldn't be setting up their own policies anyway.
__________________
dgoldenz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2010, 07:26 PM   #24
Confused about dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgoldenz View Post
On a case we did in November last year. 70 year old male, 63 year old female, assuming perfect health. $4500 monthly benefit, 5% compound inflation rider, 3 year benefit period, shared care rider (if not a standard benefit), 0-day elimination period for home health care, 90 day elimination period otherwise, paid-up survivorship benefit.

Genworth - $5,4xx
John Hancock - $6,3xx
Guardian - $10,2xx

The 5% inflation rider with Guardian (~$4,400/year) was nearly the entire cost of the whole Genworth policy with nearly identical benefits.

While, in this scenario what dgoldenz is asserting is technically correct, the comparison is slanted to what the Genworth Privileged Choice policy does very well....which is offer bells and whistles such as shared care, spousal survivorship, and a 0 day home care elimination period very inexpensively. For this reason, Genworth is really always an excellent choice. However, this is not the design that would favor Guardian. The actuary behind Guardian's product, Jim Glickman, prices 0 day HHC EP, and Spousal Survivorship, and shared care very high. Especially the survivorship feature.

Guardian's price for a married couple age 70/63 in excellent health $4500/mo., 5% compound, 90 day wait, 3 years each $4926, 4 years each $5829, 5 years each $6732, 6 years each $6979. Guardian's pricing is actually fine. It's probably a little better for clients in their fifties, than clients in their seventies. And the Guardian product does a lot of things well----competitive for Unlimited benefits, 10 pay funding, and wide selection of inflation options. One must, however, recognize what is driving up the price in dgoldenz example above. It's not the core benefits. It's the fluff. A client may not want the fluff. They may just want to know what the money costs. Genworth sells the fluff cheap.

Yesterday, I had a couple in my office in their 50's. Interestingly, they were also looking at $150.00/day, 6 years shared benefits, with compound inflation. Of 14 companies, Genworth was the cheapest, Guardian was the second cheapest. And it was close. But Genworth is an A rated company, and Guardian is A++ and Guardian has never had a rate increase on in-force business unlike Genworth and John Hancock. They may choose Guardian. They may choose Genworth. Probably will choose Genworth. I will write whichever company they prefer, but it is silly to slant a comparison the way dgoldenz did above, with Survivorship and 0 day HHC EP driving up Guardian's price. If Guardian can sell that same couple 6 years each of benefits for $6900, why would I lead a client to believe that the cost of 6 years only to share is $10200? It's not fair to the client to not have transparency.

If I want to buy a car and am comparing Accords and Camrys, and Honda wants to give me a 6 disc CD changer, while Honda wants to charge me $4000 for the item, it doesn't mean the Accord is an expensive car. It just means that if I feel I like the ride of the Accord better, I probably won't include the 6 disc cd changer.
__________________
JackLenenberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2010, 07:42 PM   #25
Confused about dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgoldenz View Post
I get paid within 5% of each other for Guardian and JH/Genworth....a good agent will place the business with the company that fits best regardless of commission anyway. How are you coming up with rates for Guardian lower than a comparable policy with John Hancock? The base rates may be similar, but add on a few of the important benefit riders and the Guardian price goes through the roof. See the example I posted and re-run it yourself.

Also, you having the rates on your computer doesn't help the average consumer find instant quotes online without talking to an agent first. That said, LTC is a complicated product and your average consumer shouldn't be setting up their own policies anyway.
I already know what drives up Guardian's price and I responded. It just depends where one wants to take the conversation with a client. The Genworth Privileged Choice policy is the best value in the country. I know this, and write it for most of my clients. But I also want to be fair to Guardian and Mass Mutual. Neither sells optional riders cheaply. Just like John Hancock does not sell Unlimited benefit models cheaply. Just like Met Life does not sell compound inflation cheaply. To insinuate that John Hancock is always overpriced because it does not want the Unlimited business would be unfair as well. But don't slant the picture for Mass Mutual and Guardian because you feel the bells and whistles are critical.
__________________
JackLenenberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2010, 07:55 PM   #26
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: VA
Posts: 923
The bells and whistles are critical though, although it seems you feel otherwise. Given that nobody knows whether LTC will face massive rate increases in the future, a survivorship benefit is huge for a healthy couple that is looking at this for 15-25 years down the road. Anyone who sells health insurance or has ever bought health insurance should easily see the value in a survivorship benefit. Just think if they were available and you bought one of those 25 years ago before health insurance costs exploded, spouse died, and now your policy is paid up for life instead of going up 25% a year, meanwhile your spouse is long gone.

Also given that most people would prefer home health care to a nursing home or assisted living facility, 0-day EP for home healthcare is also important to have. I'm sure you know that the HHC benefit also counts towards the elimination period chosen for the base policy, even if the care isn't being done on a daily basis. Do you have a lot of clients that buy an unlimited benefit? Must be some wealthy clients...
__________________
dgoldenz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2010, 07:56 PM   #27
Confused about dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgoldenz View Post
How are you coming up with rates for Guardian lower than a comparable policy with John Hancock? The base rates may be similar, but add on a few of the important benefit riders and the Guardian price goes through the roof. See the example I posted and re-run it yourself.
Are you kidding? JH is not priced competitively at all.

Married couple age 60/55 $$200, 3 years each, compound 5%, 90 days

Genworth $2994 A
Guardian $3309 A++
Mass Mutual $3315 A++
Mutual of Omaha $3459 A+
Transamerica $3613 A
John Hancock $3802 A+
State Farm $3844 A++
Prudential $4179 A+
NY Life $5628 A++
Met Life $5816 A+


John Hancock is middle of the road. Genworth Mass Mutual and Guardian are the companies to look at. And many clients will prefer A ++ companies in today's economic climate.
__________________
JackLenenberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2010, 08:09 PM   #28
Confused about dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgoldenz View Post
The bells and whistles are critical though, although it seems you feel otherwise. Given that nobody knows whether LTC will face massive rate increases in the future, a survivorship benefit is huge for a healthy couple that is looking at this for 15-25 years down the road. Anyone who sells health insurance or has ever bought health insurance should easily see the value in a survivorship benefit. Just think if they were available and you bought one of those 25 years ago before health insurance costs exploded, spouse died, and now your policy is paid up for life instead of going up 25% a year, meanwhile your spouse is long gone.

Also given that most people would prefer home health care to a nursing home or assisted living facility, 0-day EP for home healthcare is also important to have. I'm sure you know that the HHC benefit also counts towards the elimination period chosen for the base policy, even if the care isn't being done on a daily basis. Do you have a lot of clients that buy an unlimited benefit? Must be some wealthy clients...
I have already stated that I write Genworth Privileged Choice more than any other policy. So, I like for my clients to have the survivorship feature and the 0 day waiting period. But I also recognize that these are hypothetical riders that may or may not benefit the client. At it's core, the most important features of a LTC Policy is the monthly benefit, the pool of money, and the inflation protection. The focus should absolutely be on these features. You have been missing this point. You can not state that Guardian and Mass Mutual are overpriced because you are opting to include Paid-Up Spousal Survivorship and 0 day waiting periods as options. If my client wants to know how much a $1,000,000 10 year term policy costs, and company A is 10% less expensive than company B, until I add disability waiver, and Company A becomes 25% more expensive because it prices the disability waiver too high, I can't assume that my client needs the disability waiver. He may just want the $1,000,000 life insurance policy. I owe it to my client to tell him that company A is 10% cheaper rather than adding riders that change the picture. Now, I also owe it to my clients to discuss the value of the riders, and that is why I write a lot of Genworth. But I don't have my clients walking away thinking they can't get a Guardian or a Mass Mutual policy at a great price if that's what they want.
__________________
JackLenenberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2010, 08:13 PM   #29
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: VA
Posts: 923
[QUOTE=JackLenenberg;938466]
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgoldenz View Post
How are you coming up with rates for Guardian lower than a comparable policy with John Hancock? The base rates may be similar, but add on a few of the important benefit riders and the Guardian price goes through the roof. See the example I posted and re-run it yourself.

QUOTE]

Are you kidding? JH is not priced competitively at all.

Married couple age 60/55 $$200, 3 years each, compound 5%, 90 days

Genworth $2994 A
Guardian $3309 A++
Mass Mutual $3315 A++
Mutual of Omaha $3459 A+
Transamerica $3613 A
John Hancock $3802 A+
State Farm $3844 A++
Prudential $4179 A+
NY Life $5628 A++
Met Life $5816 A+


John Hancock is middle of the road. Genworth Mass Mutual and Guardian are the companies to look at. And many clients will prefer A ++ companies in today's economic climate.
What do the numbers look like expressed as a monthly benefit instead of daily and with the riders added in? I wouldn't even bother with some of those other companies, even though I sell other lines for them. While Genworth isn't A++ rated, they're in the LTC game for the long haul. We've had several clients get killed by rate increases on TransAm policies that were bought years ago. I'm sure you know how things go when companies abandon their products. Genworth/JH/Guardian would be the companies I would use most unless there was an underwriting issue. Guardian is a great company, no doubt about that, but the price of their 5% compound rider is insane. With the new increases, JH will probably get knocked down a few pegs. Given the rapid increase in medical care costs, I'm a big believer in 5% compound riders. If they want to price those out of their portfolio, so be it. Someone else will take their business.
__________________
dgoldenz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2010, 08:18 PM   #30
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: VA
Posts: 923
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackLenenberg View Post
I have already stated that I write Genworth Privileged Choice more than any other policy. So, I like for my clients to have the survivorship feature and the 0 day waiting period. But I also recognize that these are hypothetical riders that may or may not benefit the client. At it's core, the most important features of a LTC Policy is the monthly benefit, the pool of money, and the inflation protection. The focus should absolutely be on these features. You have been missing this point. You can not state that Guardian and Mass Mutual are overpriced because you are opting to include Paid-Up Spousal Survivorship and 0 day waiting periods as options. If my client wants to know how much a $1,000,000 10 year term policy costs, and company A is 10% less expensive than company B, until I add disability waiver, and Company A becomes 25% more expensive because it prices the disability waiver too high, I can't assume that my client needs the disability waiver. He may just want the $1,000,000 life insurance policy. I owe it to my client to tell him that company A is 10% cheaper rather than adding riders that change the picture. Now, I also owe it to my clients to discuss the value of the riders, and that is why I write a lot of Genworth. But I don't have my clients walking away thinking they can't get a Guardian or a Mass Mutual policy at a great price if that's what they want.

I think we're in the same boat here...but I would estimate less than 10% of our clients decide to buy just a base LTC policy versus one with the riders, while most people buying life insurance don't buy the disability waiver since the definitions of disability are much tougher than a separate disability policy which may have a residual/partial benefit. I keep things on an even keel when I show the quotes so they can compare apples-to-apples. If they want to remove some riders, they can see exactly what the price breaks down to.
__________________
dgoldenz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2010, 07:34 PM   #31
Confused about dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 9
[QUOTE=dgoldenz;938476]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackLenenberg View Post

What do the numbers look like expressed as a monthly benefit instead of daily and with the riders added in? I wouldn't even bother with some of those other companies, even though I sell other lines for them. While Genworth isn't A++ rated, they're in the LTC game for the long haul. We've had several clients get killed by rate increases on TransAm policies that were bought years ago. I'm sure you know how things go when companies abandon their products. Genworth/JH/Guardian would be the companies I would use most unless there was an underwriting issue. Guardian is a great company, no doubt about that, but the price of their 5% compound rider is insane. With the new increases, JH will probably get knocked down a few pegs. Given the rapid increase in medical care costs, I'm a big believer in 5% compound riders. If they want to price those out of their portfolio, so be it. Someone else will take their business.
__________________
JackLenenberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2010, 07:52 PM   #32
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Guys, get a room.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2010, 08:00 PM   #33
Confused about dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 9
With all due respect you are analyzing the cost incorrectly. The price of the compound inflation rider with Guardian is not "insane." It's approximately the same percentage as Genworth or Hancock. In looking at the percentage of premium increase for your hypothetical couple age 70/63 best health $150, 3 years each, 90 day wait Guardian $2897 without inflation, $4680 with 5% compound. John Hancock $2663 without inflation, $4761 with 5% compound; Genworth (Classic Select) $2257 without; $3823 with 5% compound rider.

The proper analysis is to determine the percentage increase in premium by adding the compound inflation rider to the core benefit package.

Guardian 61%
Genworth 69 %
John Hancock 78%

Guardian is actually the lowest percentage wise.

If I add the waiver of premium for home care as the rider to Guardian's policy just to make it apples-to-apples the numbers change to $3216/$5468---70% increase. Either way, still in the range of Genworth, and still less expensive to John Hancock.

dgoldenz, I hope this makes sense for you. If you have any questions, or if I can help you, please feel free to give me a call. I have well over $1,000,000 of long term care premium on the books, so this is not my first rodeo.

What you did was add all the optional riders to Guardian's policy to drive up the base price to $6000, and then you felt the compound inflation was expensive because it then took the premium to $10,000. Just because the dollars were now higher, doesn't mean that Guardian charges a lot for the rider. Compound 5% inflation will add 60%-70% premium to every policy. Guardian is no different than Genworth. The analysis is the premium percentage, not the dollars. As I have mentioned, you can't go to Guardian looking to buy the fluff. But it doesn't mean that Guardian doesn't include the important options like inflation any different than Hancock or Genworth. And come next month, John Hancock is gone.
__________________
JackLenenberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2010, 08:13 PM   #34
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
bbbamI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Dallas 'burb
Posts: 9,039
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345 View Post
Guys, get a room.
__________________
There's no need to complicate, our time is short..
bbbamI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2010, 08:13 PM   #35
Confused about dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgoldenz View Post
I think we're in the same boat here...but I would estimate less than 10% of our clients decide to buy just a base LTC policy versus one with the riders, while most people buying life insurance don't buy the disability waiver since the definitions of disability are much tougher than a separate disability policy which may have a residual/partial benefit. I keep things on an even keel when I show the quotes so they can compare apples-to-apples. If they want to remove some riders, they can see exactly what the price breaks down to.

Bottom line is I just wanted to point out to you that you were mistaken in your belief that ALL mutual companies were priced twice as high as Genworth and John Hancock. The fact remains that Northwestern is a mutual company that IS outrageously expensive for LTC. Mass Mutual and Guardian are two mutual companies that are VERY well priced, and often times better priced than JH. Of course everything depends upon age and health of the client, and respective underwriting. The primary objective is to advise the client properly and get the application approved, whichever company you go to.

Thanks. Class is now out of session for summer break.
__________________
JackLenenberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2010, 08:33 PM   #36
Moderator Emeritus
Bestwifeever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,375
It's like watching Nascar, in a way. Round and round they go.
__________________
“Would you like an adventure now, or would you like to have your tea first?” J.M. Barrie, Peter Pan
Bestwifeever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2010, 09:26 PM   #37
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
REWahoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas Hill Country
Posts: 42,103
Let's just hope they both keep turning left...
__________________
Numbers is hard

When I hit 70, it hit back

Retired in 2005 at age 58, no pension
REWahoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2010, 08:29 AM   #38
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgoldenz View Post
The rates are public information, but you would still need to get them from somewhere. You can request them from each insurance company based on a given set of parameters, but it's not something you will find posted publicly online unless you are an agent. There are many variables and optional riders with LTC and unless you know what you're looking at, you may not have an apples-to-apples comparison. Companies like Mass Mutual, Guardian, and Northwest Mutual will have much, much higher rates than JH and Genworth.
I bought LTC policies for my wife and I 6 years ago. I got quotes from 3 or 4 companies, but State Farm has a quote calculator on their site: www.statefarm.com. I didn't buy there policy, but I did use the calculator to run the various options for comparison.

Just an FYI for anyone interested.
__________________
hogwild is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2010, 01:48 PM   #39
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,820
Quote:
Originally Posted by hogwild View Post
I bought LTC policies for my wife and I 6 years ago. I got quotes from 3 or 4 companies, but State Farm has a quote calculator on their site: www.statefarm.com. I didn't buy there policy, but I did use the calculator to run the various options for comparison.

Just an FYI for anyone interested.
Thanks, it seemed to work for me. I wonder if anyone else can point to an online quote system for LTC insurance?
__________________
Independent is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2010, 04:42 AM   #40
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,072
AARP / Genworth quote. https://longtermcare.genworth.com/Si...e/loginAARP.do
__________________

__________________
chinaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New Federal Long Term Care oldguyER Health and Early Retirement 2 12-16-2009 08:52 AM
Long-Term Care - Part of Health Care Reform Bill chinaco Health and Early Retirement 3 07-19-2009 03:53 PM
Long Term Care Insurance udenmkh Hi, I am... 1 10-19-2007 07:13 AM
Long Term Health Care oliverdickens Health and Early Retirement 51 03-18-2007 04:21 PM
Long Term Care for Canadians Hyperborea FIRE and Money 17 01-21-2005 04:20 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:20 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.