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Old 05-01-2008, 07:50 AM   #21
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That's $3.33 per day. Must eat a lot of peanut butter.
Oh gosh, I remember those days. Mac 'n' cheese cost $0.23/box back then, and the cheap off brand PB tasted like bug spray. Despite these awful and fattening foods I stayed skinny because most of the time I was hungry! I'm glad to leave those times FAR behind, though now I must struggle with keeping my weight down.
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Old 05-01-2008, 07:55 AM   #22
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Gas $55.67? You must live close to work. I spend more than that just driving to the golf course. Oh yes, how often does Frank take you out to dinner? That's a nice food cost cutting benefit. I guess it's not entirely free.
Yes, I just live a mile and a half from work. That wasn't entirely by accident! Also, I drive a 4-cylinder Toyota Camry Solara and it gets great gas mileage. The last time I calculated it, I think I was getting 30-32 mpg city and 33-36 mpg highway, which I think is even better than it's supposed to get. That fill-up was on April 7th and it was the first time I had ever spent over $55 on gas for that car. I still have 3/4 of a tank, so I will probably fill up next in June.

Frank and I never see one another during the work week, since he works second shift and I don't, so I'd say twice a week. Always on Saturdays for the past few months now that he's not doing weekend OT any more, but I often beg off on Sunday nights so that I can go home, do laundry, and get to bed early for the next day. You're right - - good relationships like ours involve mutual give and take.

My food bill is probably higher than indicated, too, because I need to go to the grocery store soon. That would probably have added another $150 to that, had I gone yesterday after work. But, I didn't and will probably procrastinate until next weekend. I need to raid the frozen stuff in my freezer anyway, so that it will be empty by June 1st when hurricane season starts. On tonight's menu: thawed then grilled chicken breast with herbs, steamfresh veggies (not cheap, but so good!), and thawed frozen strawberries with reconstituted nonfat dry milk (which I happen to be strange enough to like). All out of the freezer and although healthy, not my idea of haute cuisine.
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Old 05-01-2008, 09:38 AM   #23
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Total for April was $1176. Can anyone beat that?
it is hard for me to even imagine that. i assume that is only what you happened to spend that particular month and does not include budgeted items that might expensed-out during the year.

$1183.74/month pays for my property tax; home, car & house insurance, trash/sewer/water, electric; rx, eye care & dental cleanings.

then there are the luxuries like food, fuel, tires, clothing, tolls, home improvements, etc.

if the housing market didn't have me trapped in expensive south florida, i could downsize to daytona or tampa where i estimate monthly expenses would drop to about $2640.

i'm trying to put together budgets for a life overseas but it is not so easy to come up with figures. i'm working on cost of living figures for thailand, india, costa rica and argentina to give me an idea of what i'm getting myself into. so far it doesn't seem all that cheap.

while i'm sure i don't have accurate figures so a lot is estimating based on what i find of similar expenses on forum discussions and various other websites, seems like thailand (i'm including travel expenses) will cost about $27,000 (including rent) as compared to daytona at $31,700 (paid for condo) to afford me the comfort level which currently costs $34,800 (includes everything such as some padding (of the budget), books, cd's, entertainment, computer replacements, etc.)

i'm working really hard to try and whittle down those numbers but what can i say, i'm spoiled, i like good quality toilet paper.
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Old 05-01-2008, 12:56 PM   #24
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I find it fascinating that nearly everyone who answers these kinds of questions -- including me -- says we spend $X "but that's not including" X, Y, or Z. X, Y, or Z are surely expenses that must be paid, and so they ought to be accounted for in a proper FIRE plan.

In my case, my annual all-in expenses run about $60K per year right now, or about $5K per month on average. That includes everything according to Quicken reports, but that still excludes longer term infrequent expenses such as a new roof / new car / major medical expenses. I handwave those kinds of things away since I haven't had those expenses in the last two years and don't plan to have them for quite a number of years in the future.

Now my "X, Y, or Z" exclusions: Easily 75-80% of that $60K per year goes to pay for my kids (including child support, etc.), my mortgage interest, and my income taxes. So I figure after my kids are grown and gone and the house is paid off, I can probably live the same lifestyle I do now (which is probably similar to Khan's and a bit lower than W2R's) on about $1K per month.

So I guess it depends on how you measure.

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Old 05-01-2008, 01:05 PM   #25
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....
Total for April was $1176. Can anyone beat that?
Well, sure, I can beat that, I can spend twice that much. Oh, you mean.... Yeah, I can beat myself up.
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Old 05-01-2008, 01:17 PM   #26
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So I figure after my kids are grown and gone and the house is paid off, I can probably live the same lifestyle I do now (which is probably similar to Khan's and a bit lower than W2R's)
Hee hee!! It appears that I have successfully pulled this off. Now, I am spending enough for some or perhaps many on the forum to be a teensy bit envious, but not spending like an NBA star! By George, I think I've got it... behold, a middle ground!



Life is such an adventure, for all of us.
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Old 05-01-2008, 01:20 PM   #27
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50k in 2007 - including everything, all taxes, 4 driving vacations to Orlando, New Orleans(2), Chattanooga, 11k payoff of car loan, other wild and frivolous stuff like mortgage, and health insurance.

15th year of ER - and still under running my 4% bogey - need to pick up the pace cause I'm not getting any younger(64).

12k for one year back early ER in the 90's - my one time all time best(no health insurance, mortgage or new car payments).

Doubt if I could get back that cheap - or would I want too??

heh heh heh - fond memories of cheap bastardhood do tug at the mind once in a while .
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Old 05-01-2008, 02:29 PM   #28
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I find it fascinating that nearly everyone who answers these kinds of questions -- including me -- says we spend $X "but that's not including" X, Y, or Z. X, Y, or Z are surely expenses that must be paid, and so they ought to be accounted for in a proper FIRE plan.

In my case, my annual all-in expenses run about $60K per year right now, or about $5K per month on average. That includes everything according to Quicken reports, but that still excludes longer term infrequent expenses such as a new roof / new car / major medical expenses. I handwave those kinds of things away since I haven't had those expenses in the last two years and don't plan to have them for quite a number of years in the future.

Now my "X, Y, or Z" exclusions: Easily 75-80% of that $60K per year goes to pay for my kids (including child support, etc.), my mortgage interest, and my income taxes. So I figure after my kids are grown and gone and the house is paid off, I can probably live the same lifestyle I do now (which is probably similar to Khan's and a bit lower than W2R's) on about $1K per month.

So I guess it depends on how you measure.

2Cor521

I do this with taxes because they are something I have little control over. I asked a tax lady once how could I cut my taxes more she said I could go live under the bridge and not work. She has a good point but I have become spoiled by the utilities. The rest of the stuff I have more control over.
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Old 05-01-2008, 02:41 PM   #29
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Depending on what I include or exclude from the calculations, we spend between $0 and $130,000 annually. A detailed review of actual 2007 expenditures revealed not a single penny spent where a case couldn't be made as to whether to include it or exclude it. So....... I wind up with a rather broad window! We don't have to spend a penny (that couldn't be excluded from the add-up) or we need a ton of money. It depends!

I love comparisons made in threads like this one...... since they are so absolutely apples to oranges and generally meaningless. But, entertaining just the same!

To OP: We can easily go way below your $1176/person and that's even using some of the same accounting rules of thumb you seem to be using. You must be throwing the $$$ out the window!
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Old 05-01-2008, 03:33 PM   #30
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I find it fascinating that nearly everyone who answers these kinds of questions -- including me -- says we spend $X "but that's not including" X, Y, or Z. X, Y, or Z are surely expenses that must be paid, and so they ought to be accounted for in a proper FIRE plan.
For me, I excluded my mortgage and charitable contributions to come up with $1022/month. The charitable contributions are not expenses in the sense that they don't have to be paid. They are completely optional. They do not impact my lifestyle or frugality. Are they expenses? Yes. No. Sort of. As for my mortgage, it's a conscious decision not to pay it off. In essence, I've invested the loan to receive a net positive return. I could pay off the mortgage tomorrow and stop giving to charity. This would have no impact on my lifestyle. So I look at these expenses in a different way. But I agree. These types of comparisons are apples and oranges. It all depends on how one looks at it.
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Old 05-01-2008, 03:54 PM   #31
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For me, I excluded my mortgage and charitable contributions to come up with $1022/month.
One nice thing about paying rent and buying health insurance is that it is pretty clear that expenses are what you spend, plus amortization of lumpy expenses.

As for excluding things like trips and gifts, I am not sure. Likely most of us want to continue at whatever level we now travel, or even increase it.

So under real duress we could cut back, but life would be noticeably inferior. I know my life would really change if I dropped a couple thousand from my current spending level.

Ha
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Old 05-01-2008, 04:06 PM   #32
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The important aspects of this type of discussion (at least to me), are:

1) Being happy with how much we spend, and how much we save
2) Challenging ourselves to improve
2) Realizing that we are in control - - our conscious decisions have a huge effect on how much we can save, and
3) We demonstrate and confirm that each of us can set and achieve realistic budgetary goals.

(This is as a single person - - none of the above worked for me when I was married! Maybe it does for couples who are better aligned when it comes to spending habits.)

It really doesn't matter what you count or don't count, because (as 2Cor51 pointed out), our totals really aren't comparable. It's interesting to see the itemizing in others' budgets, though, because others' expenses in various categories give me ideas of where I might be spending too much and where I might want to spend a little more (now that I can).
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Old 05-01-2008, 04:49 PM   #33
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TThis is as a single person - - none of the above worked for me when I was married! Maybe it does for couples who are better aligned when it comes to spending habits.)

I know several people on this board were married to real spenders but I do not understand how you can not still accumulate money . From your posts I wonder if it is just that you finally started LBYM at a later age . My first husband was a spender but I was still able to squirrel away some money and then I spent seven years as a single Mom and saved enough to put my children thru college . So how can people possibly get to be in their fifties with no savings and high earning potential ? I'm not being facetious I truly don't understand .
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Old 05-01-2008, 04:59 PM   #34
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I know several people on this board were married to real spenders but I do not understand how you can not still accumulate money .
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My first husband was a spender but I was still able to squirrel away some money
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So how can people possibly get to be in their fifties with no savings and high earning potential ?
Moemg, good for you to be able to save some money while you were married! I think that the answer to your question is that different people face different challenges, experiences, and life choices. But maybe I am wrong (it wouldn't be the first time).
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Old 05-01-2008, 05:13 PM   #35
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Moemg, good for you to be able to save some money while you were married! I think that the answer to your question is that different people face different challenges, experiences,

My sister is married to a big time spender but luckily she realized it early and took control of the money . He still spends and she still saves and they've been happily married for forty years . So I think the answer may be to not let things get out of control money wise . Of course there are always awful things like illness ,addictions and bad choices which can do in anyone's savings .
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Old 05-01-2008, 05:31 PM   #36
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My sister is married to a big time spender but luckily she realized it early and took control of the money . He still spends and she still saves and they've been happily married for forty years . So I think the answer may be to not let things get out of control money wise . Of course there are always awful things like illness ,addictions and bad choices which can do in anyone's savings .
You sound very proud of your sister, and for good reason, it sounds like! Unless I'm mistaken it also sounds like you and I agree that marriages can be different from one another, just as people and the life challenges they face are different from one another. It has something to do with walking a mile in another man's moccasins, I believe.
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Old 05-01-2008, 05:45 PM   #37
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In general I dislike analogies, but one just came to mind here in relation to my "excluding X, Y and Z" comment.

I play golf, and when I do I generally keep score. I've played for nearly 30 years and I've never broken 100 for 18 holes. (The closest I have come is 103.) When I keep score, I follow all the rules (as best I know them). When I hit my tee shot in the water, I go back and "retee hitting 3", a.k.a., stroke and distance. When I muff it off the tee 3 yards, I count that as a stroke, leave my ball where it is, and hit my second shot from where my ball lands. If I swing at the ball and miss, I count that as a stroke, because that is what the rules say. When I tee the ball, I tee it behind and between the tee markers. I have friends who have broken 100 but they do so by not following the rules. I don't begrudge them or look down on them for doing so; I do disagree with their approach and I don't do it that way for myself. I am really hoping one day that I will break 100, and when I do I know that it will be because I really scored less than 100.

A similar thing happens with FIRE and expenses. I can claim that I spend $12K per year by excluding certain categories or types of expenses when in fact Quicken tells me the true number is more like $60K. Unlike golf, where the result is unjustified bragging rights, in the case of the 4% rule if I mentally exclude certain costs I run the risk of pretending myself into an unsafe SWR situation. Put another way, even if I mentally exclude taxes (or vacations, or charitable giving, or roof replacements, or whatever) from my annual expenses, I sure as shootin' better include them in my spending when I am figuring up whether I am spending less than 4% of my FIRE stash. To not do so represents a certain kind of peril which can be avoided.

In a similar vein, I think it is far better to measure and track 100% of one's finances for at least a year before retiring and ensure that spending is "4% safe" than to say, "Oh, I can cut back on spending this or that and get my spending down to $X and so I can retire now", which is even better than just guessing at one's expenses without tracking. YMOYL makes a similar point when it suggests tracking one's income and expenses over a long period of time. I have done so and I know for a fact that my expenses have tracked right around $5k per month for a number of months. Knowing this represents an increased degree of certainty and therefore security to me in my FIRE planning.

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Old 05-01-2008, 05:49 PM   #38
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Yes, I spend 100/month of groceries. As mentioned, I never eat out, except maybe once a month, and put that under Misc. I only eat out for purely social reasons, it is almost physically painful for me to be spending 3-4 times as much on food than I normally would. I live in the Midwest and buy my food at Meijer. 90% of what I buy is on sale, 8% is low cost staple itmes and 2% are "splurges." usually just one or two items.

I do not drink, smoke, or drink pop. Yes, it is only called pop in my state. I eat some sort of frozen vegetable, pasta, orange juice, milk and tea every day, I may mix it up a bit for the other items. A eat 1/3 of the frozen beans, which costs 35 cents a serving, the pasta costs about 40 cents a serving, including the no-fat/no-cholesterol squeeze "butter" I put on it, the orange juice is about 50 cents a glass, the milk is about 30 cents, the tea ranges from low quality to high, so can range from 20 cents to 50 cents (since I drink multiple servings of it). I also usually eat a bag of pretzels as a snack throughout the day which is 1 dollar. This adds up to...about 2.75 on a normal day. The other .66 a day goes to my splurge item (fresh asparagus/cherry strudel) and household items (toilet paper/paper toweling/one other household item).

Oh yea, my credit card discounts 2% off all my groceries as well. 5% on gas (but it is still 150 even after that ). Obviously, I don't pay a fee for the credit card and the amount is automatically deducted from my bill each month.

One year in undergrad, I was on a ramen noodles diet for a bit when I was stuck in a dorm without a stove, that got old very fast, I have a much more balanced diet now, thanks to having access to a stove and some experience buying groceries. My salt intake is a bit high still, but not too bad, I only sometimes go over the daily recommended amount. There is way to much salt for my liking in a lot of foods. Mac/cheese, ramen, boxed rice are pretty nasty in regular quantities. I would like to get a rice cooker though at some point, as I like white fluffy rice, especially with some sort of sweet or salty sauce, but the packaged stuff has a gigantic amount of overkill on butter and salt.

If I am working, I bring a low cost microwave meal, something in the $1-$1.50 range (often healthy choice on sale). Also go through 75 cents in snacks. However, my work provides some fairly decent green tea for free, which offsets the extra cost of the convenience meal, I usually go through 8-10 cups.

I had to fix my tires twice this month (two different tires went flat) but it was free thanks to the warranty through discount tire.
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Old 05-01-2008, 06:00 PM   #39
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Yes, I spend 100/month of groceries. As mentioned, I never eat out, except maybe once a month, and put that under Misc. I live in the Midwest and buy my food at Meijer. 90% of what I buy is on sale, 8% is low cost staple itmes and 2% are "splurges." usually just one or two items.

I do not drink, smoke, or drink pop. Yes, it is only called pop in my state. I eat some sort of frozen vegetable, pasta, orange juice, milk and tea every day, I may mix it up a bit for the other items. A eat 1/3 of the frozen beans, which costs 35 cents a serving, the pasta costs about 40 cents a serving, including the no-fat/no-cholesterol squeeze "butter" I put on it, the orange juice is about 50 cents a glass, the milk is about 30 cents, the tea ranges from low quality to high, so can range from 20 cents to 50 cents (since I drink multiple servings of it). I also usually eat a bag of pretzels as a snack throughout the day which is 1 dollar. This adds up to...about 2.75 on a normal day. The other .66 a day goes to my splurge item and household items (toilet paper/paper toweling/one other household item).

If I am working, I bring a low cost microwave meal, something in the $1-$1.50 range. Also go through 75 cents in snacks. However, my work provides some fairly decent green tea for free, which offsets the extra cost of the convenience meal, I usually go through 8-10 cups.
You are doing wonderfully with your food budget! That's amazing. I was going to ask if you are getting enough protein, but I guess the beans probably supply some (?) and then there is probably some in the microwave meals.
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Old 05-01-2008, 06:10 PM   #40
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Your story is so interesting, Plex. The only other time I've seen "pasta with butter" was at my favorite Italian restaurant. I imagine you as very thin, very young and very peppy. Hope to see more posts from you. I like the idea of classifying eating out as Misc.
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