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Re: Kiyosaki
Old 07-04-2006, 10:39 AM   #81
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Re: Kiyosaki

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Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
I dont think thats the argument here.

I think the argument is whether the writer in question offers solid, sage investing advice thats well taken by the average potential investor.

Not whether the rare few who are inspired by the topic and follow through with a success story should spurn their inspiration.

Heck a couple of child killers have inspired individuals to start foundations and pass laws to better protect kids.* Doesnt mean that we should line up to praise the inspiration...
very well put, my sentiments exactly.
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Re: Kiyosaki
Old 07-04-2006, 10:48 AM   #82
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Re: Kiyosaki

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Originally Posted by PsyopRanger
It also seems funny that those of us who have read his books and apply his principles are attacked by those who have never read his books?*
Ranger, what's your opinion of Kiyosaki lying about his military record?
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Re: Kiyosaki
Old 07-04-2006, 10:51 AM   #83
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Re: Kiyosaki

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Originally Posted by Nords
Ranger, what's your opinion of Kiyosaki lying about his military record?
I want everyone to know that I was in the same unit that Bill Clinton was.
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Re: Kiyosaki
Old 07-04-2006, 10:52 AM   #84
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Re: Kiyosaki

Let me see if I can address this, and please lets stay on the level here. I have absolutely no dog in this hunt one way or the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsyopRanger
What part of investing does not have potential loss?
All of them to some degree. The difference is in understanding the risks and the risk/rewards and being aware of what one is getting themselves into. You seem to be a pretty sharp investor, particularly for your age. I like the stuff it looks like you're doing. I suspect you'd have "gone off" on your own or had some other inspiration.

There are a whole lotta people far less adept and fortunate than you are.

Quote:
If you get educated about investing, use proper stop losses and trailing gains stops, you cannot “lose your shirt.”
Quite possibly. Seems like you're incorporating some aspects of gambling into investing, and I think thats where some people get uncomfortable.

Quote:
Throwing my money into a mutual fund that only rebalances once a year when the stocks are negative is not sound financial advice in my opinion.
And you're entitled to it and to invest accordingly. On the other hand, some studies have shown that frequent rebalancing can be more detrimental than infrequent rebalancing. Its a matter of correlating the rebalance cycle with a particular investments up-cycles. If some tend to have 3-5 year up cycles then rebalancing every year takes away some upside potential. But then again, nobody can solidly know for sure how long an up or down cycle will be, so we throw away a little upside potential to remove some downside. Try to keep a balance.

Quote:
This is the part that you are not seeing, he does not say “Run out and make millions” he challenges you to search deeper and do your own due diligence.
And some people will take that challenge, run with it, and be successful. A whole lot will not really get it and screw themselves.

Quote:
To my knowledge, he offers no specific financial advice. He recommends strategies and it is up to the end user to do the leg work.
Pretty much the case with most of these. If it works for you, do it.

Heres the crux of what I think people are negative on. The guy lies, and certainly many writers do just to spice things up. But this guy isnt tweaking how old someone was or what time of year he met somebody, he's making up people and situations that are core to his 'story'. Theres also a certain degree of hucksterism.

And I will grant...these things dont automatically make everything the guy does, says and the results from that all fruit of a poisoned tree.

But dont expect a lot of respect for it from seasoned investors who didnt drink the kool-aid.

One last thing...you've been doing well over a ~4 year period, most of which hasnt been that bad a time to be an investor, especially in real estate. When you've got 20+ years into the game, you might see a different perspective and sing a different tune. A lot of whats been going on has been speculation and inertia, not effective planning.
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Re: Kiyosaki
Old 07-04-2006, 10:55 AM   #85
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Re: Kiyosaki

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Originally Posted by 2B
I want everyone to know that I was in the same unit that Bill Clinton was.
Just as long as Bill Clintons unit wasnt in you. Although he'd most certainly have lied about it, even if he was under oath.
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Re: Kiyosaki
Old 07-04-2006, 10:55 AM   #86
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Re: Kiyosaki

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Originally Posted by PsyopRanger

To my knowledge, he offers no specific financial advice.* He recommends strategies and it is up to the end user to do the leg work.
He sure does, "A year ago, I sent out a warning to investors, especially flippers, to cash out quickly." *quoted from *How to Profit From a Cooling Real Estate Market

Don't know of anything more specific than this.

added: it may not be wrong but it is still specific.
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Re: Kiyosaki
Old 07-04-2006, 11:04 AM   #87
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Re: Kiyosaki

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Originally Posted by d
he's at it again! (Tuesday, June 27, 2006)
1) "A vast number of people think that investing for the long term in a diversified portfolio of mutual funds is the smart thing to do. In my opinion, this ranks among the worst possible investments."
2) "Most index funds think a 10 percent to 25 percent return is a good rate. Active investors can regularly beat those gains, especially if they stay away from traditional investments such as savings, stocks, bonds, and index and mutual funds"
Hmm, I hadnt even fully read the thread before throwing in my 2c.

If this is the guys recommendation, I'd like to see his factual, long term basis for it. Because I've never seen any data that would support this. Facts show that excepting a handful of individuals, nobody except for buffett has a long term record for beating long term whole equity market returns.

Based on this assertion, I can easily see how a lot of people can get hurt. And if the guy makes his money telling people stuff like this, he *is* a scumbag.

That some people turn his motivation into success is a thin byproduct.
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Re: Kiyosaki
Old 07-04-2006, 11:05 AM   #88
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Re: Kiyosaki

I think part of the "Kiyosaki issue" may be generational. *Our 29 year old "champion" hasn't seen real estate lose 20+% in a few months. *He or his family or LLC hasn't owned rental property where half of his units are empty and half of the occupied units aren't paying. *He probably has never gone to a closing for a property he's selling with a check to cover the difference between his mortgage balance and the sales price. *He has probably never had a property for sale where there are 50 just like it for sale within a one mile radius. *He probably has never wondered where he's going to come up with the check for next month's mortgage payments. *He probably has a "one liner" to say why it can't happen to him.

I've had a few of the issues above but fortunately not all. *There's a lot of rich people that have made their fortune in real estate. *More power to them. *There are many more real estate tycoons on the Forbes 100 than stock investors. *I've also known many people that have had a serious string of rental properties and managing them is a full time job. *There is absolutely nothing wrong with anything the Kiyosaki says about investing (cute platitudes and other fluff excluded) but he also doesn't give a fool proof formula. *Duh, do your homework.

I have many different investments now although I'm more involved in highly liquid securities. *I will give some "can't miss" stock advice -- Only buy stocks that go up a lot, very quickly and then sell before they go back down. *Remember you heard it hear from me first. *Actually, that sounds a lot like Kiyosaki if you put in real estate in place of stocks.
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Re: Kiyosaki
Old 07-04-2006, 11:08 AM   #89
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Re: Kiyosaki

I wouldnt pick on the guy too much, looks like he's got a reasonably diverse portfolio and at least a decent understanding of investing.

I think he's probably got some hard times ahead, I doubt he's going to make 20-35% every year (or even almost every year) from his investments, and I think his loyalty to his inspiration may be misplaced, but that shouldnt reduce the respect for what seems to be good learning and a job well done.
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Re: Kiyosaki
Old 07-04-2006, 11:10 AM   #90
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Re: Kiyosaki

Okay here is my final take; I don’t put stock in the guy as a person. I didn’t do a background check and I am not sure on his military record (I thought he was a merchant marine or something)

So much is placed on the person the advice is coming from rather than the principles.

Dr. Thomas Stanley was not a millionaire until after The Millionaire Next Door was successful; does this mean he is a con-man? His principles are still sound.

I am simply stating that his principles, some of which I have posted, are sound advice. When I started really investing in 2001, I didn’t know a stock from a mutual fund. But, by taking his advice of getting financially educated, I read more books from other authors (Buffet, Lynch, Soros) and started researching investing methods and strategies. Some worked, some didn’t. I have now found what works for me.

The point is the journey.

I talk to people all the time that want to know “how” to invest without knowing really “why” they should invest.

The “Why” is what keeps a person from buying liabilities and not getting into debt.
The “Why” is what gets a person to max their 401(k) and Roth.
The “Why” is retiring early and spending time on things that really matter in life (kids, grandkids, spiritual, etc.)

Kiyosaki challenges readers to find a “Why” and then let’s them discover there own “How”

I should also add that I only read his first 4 books, I haven’t read anything in the past 2 years as I think it is all re-hash of the basic principles. This is marketing.
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Re: Kiyosaki
Old 07-04-2006, 11:17 AM   #91
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Re: Kiyosaki

I've posted before about my opinion on this guy, I won't re-hash that now, suffice to say I have big problems with his ethics and inconsistencies.

But you are right, he has co-opted some principles that are sound advice. I just think there are better sources for the information, and he mixes in a lot of chaff with the wheat.
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Re: Kiyosaki
Old 07-04-2006, 11:18 AM   #92
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Re: Kiyosaki

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Originally Posted by 2B
I think part of the "Kiyosaki issue" may be generational. Our 29 year old "champion" hasn't seen real estate lose 20+% in a few months. He or his family or LLC hasn't owned rental property where half of his units are empty and half of the occupied units aren't paying. He probably has never gone to a closing for a property he's selling with a check to cover the difference between his mortgage balance and the sales price. He has probably never had a property for sale where there are 50 just like it for sale within a one mile radius. He probably has never wondered where he's going to come up with the check for next month's mortgage payments. He probably has a "one liner" to say why it can't happen to him.
You are right on 2B, as I am in the military, I purchased near military bases with high occupancy, and one BRAC hearing could be a big, big nightmare for me.

I respect all of you for your years of wisdom and success, though I am getting a few comments, that’s why I am here? I want to learn from you old farts.

Next year when I am in foreclosure and I come crying for you to bail me out, you can say I told you so.

I am very aggressive now because of my age. I feel that being aggressive with certain loss rules is to my advantage at 29.

Will I invest the same at 40? Of course not.

I appreciate the comments? Please keep them coming.

Lance
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Re: Kiyosaki
Old 07-04-2006, 11:18 AM   #93
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Re: Kiyosaki

You are doing a terrific job in that you are questioning financial advice. *

It is a process and a few run at a faster pace than most. *

Keep reading, diversify your reading and investments. *You'll be middle aged sooner than you think.

Now go light a few fire crackers.
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Re: Kiyosaki
Old 07-04-2006, 11:20 AM   #94
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Re: Kiyosaki

I read several of his books and didn't really learn anything I didn't already know about tax laws and legal benefits. *I was inspired to look at some businesses that were for sale during a period of forced limited employment. *I found some of interest but never could get a good enough accounting or a low enough price to feel comfortable that I wasn't buying someone's overpriced dog. *I believe that well performing small business are the best way to personal wealth. *They are also fraught with risk and require a lot of skill, knowledge and work.

One thing I'm pretty sure we can all agree on is that he must have amassed a fortune with all of his books and seminars by now.
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Re: Kiyosaki
Old 07-04-2006, 11:21 AM   #95
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Re: Kiyosaki

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Originally Posted by PsyopRanger
you old farts*
I resemble that remark.
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Re: Kiyosaki
Old 07-04-2006, 11:22 AM   #96
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Re: Kiyosaki

Yep, the basic principals that psyopsranger posted are fine ones. You can get them from suzi orman, not that a lot of her other advice is any good.

The ones that I quoted from the OP, in my opinion, are not very good basic principals.

You can write a book, present your opinions and their supporting facts, and tell little anecdotal stories to help the reader get along to the conclusions. Sounds like what I see in "the millionaire next door". Although that was more "pound you to death with the facts, throw out a couple of anecdotal stories, and eventually get to the opinions and derivations.

Not seeing that with what I hear about this Kiyosaki fellow. I know the facts and data dont support his assertions and opinions. Sounds like he lies a lot about his background. That right there leaves me wondering why anyone would feed his bank account any further.
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Re: Kiyosaki
Old 07-04-2006, 03:56 PM   #97
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Re: Kiyosaki

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Originally Posted by PsyopRanger
To my knowledge, he offers no specific financial advice.
I was about to say that I agree wholeheartedly. Then I realized it's a worse situation than Kiyosaki providing no specific financial advice. He provides vague financial advice that is frequently incorrect or at the least misleading. Follow K's advice to your own detriment.

Anecdotally speaking, the only two people I've personally known to be Kiyosaki followers and take his advice had negative outcomes. One is my uncle the medical professional. He's always into something. Watkin's, Amway, LLC's, out of state residency w/ complex tax situations, buying houses, SUV's, and motorhomes just to take tax losses on them (in spite of real losses), a laundromat, etc. etc. etc. Out of all of that, I think he still is involved in the LLC out of state residency thing (that in my opinion wouldn't hold up to auditing scrutiny if the IRS/state Dept of Revenue came knocking). He's lost a lot of money between all of these ventures.

My brother's idea that only idiots go to college was reinforced by Kiyosaki's book. He also bought a money-losing "investment property" that he's still unable to sell that has very negative cash flow. Hardly any investments, and he got laid off from his tech job and now does construction work when he can get it. Too bad he didn't have a college degree to fall back on. He also got into Amway and other "investments". Originally he had planned to retire by 25. He's 29 now. He used to say only idiots invest in anything yielding less than 16%, because you can get that risk-free.

I'd say Kiyosaki is bad for some people based on personal experience.
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Re: Kiyosaki
Old 07-04-2006, 04:21 PM   #98
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Re: Kiyosaki

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Originally Posted by PsyopRanger

The “Why” is what keeps a person from buying liabilities and not getting into debt.
The “Why” is what gets a person to max their 401(k) and Roth.
The “Why” is retiring early and spending time on things that really matter in life (kids, grandkids, spiritual, etc.)*

Kiyosaki challenges readers to find a “Why” and then let’s them discover there own “How”

I should also add that I only read his first 4 books, I haven’t read anything in the past 2 years as I think it is all re-hash of the basic principles.* This is marketing.
Um, the huckster crap around terminology is what gets me with Kiyo-assclown. Like the thing about "liabilities": an asset is an asset even if it costs you money. The depreciating car has value to the user and can be sold for cash. It is an asset, not a liability.

He is full of bluster and BS, with little useful information and apparently a long track record of outright lies. I think that you probably have lots to contribute here, ranger, but kindly worship the assclown in private. Failure to do so will almost certainly result in mockery and public humiliation.
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Re: Kiyosaki
Old 07-04-2006, 05:03 PM   #99
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Re: Kiyosaki

I am really just so confused as to why people obviously want to hate the man

Its like you take every problem you have ever had and suddenly have someone to blame...

Justin
* *RK is very passionate about never ever buying anything for a tax break. His response is .
" just send me a dollar and I will give you 50 cents back "

Nord
* *Why do you believe that RK lied about his military record ?? Oh thats right Reed posted it on the web. If you read what Reed wrote he couldnt find any evidence and therefore it must not be true. Yeah thats great logic*

* Even people that havent read any of his work say he must be a scum bag.
Well ok then I see yer point*
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Re: Kiyosaki
Old 07-04-2006, 05:13 PM   #100
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Re: Kiyosaki

Oh great, the Kiyosakiphants are here.
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