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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable
Old 05-03-2007, 05:33 PM   #41
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable

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Heck, I retired when I was only 19!
I've got you beat there, buddy. I retired at 16!! Highly complex real-estate based derivatives futures commodities market trading stuff. No one on this board could really understand it (unless you give me a check for $1295 for a one-day seminar where I could teach you all of my wealth building secrets).


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I quit at 1 billion because making money was not longer a challenge.
That old saying the first billion is the hardest to make is definitely true. The second, third, etc. billion practically make themselves. After the first ten or so, it's just keeping score as my buddies Warren and Bill like to say.
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable
Old 05-03-2007, 05:43 PM   #42
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable

you'd both have been better off if you had just bought beev3r cheese!
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable
Old 05-03-2007, 06:44 PM   #43
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable

The average us salary according to wikepedia is about 50k. I think it was 2005 figures. Anyway So lets say the person can afford to put away 500 a month it would take 30 yrs to get to the million if he earns an avg of 10%
Which would be worth less than 500k of todays dollars due to inflation. Oh wait it gets better cause then he has to pay taxes.

Of course RK doesnt think the market will do well. He and others believe that the market will be forced to go lower when the boomers retire in force. Less money going in and less demand. Also you know how you guys would rather buy bonds or pay off yer mortage

Oh as a ps the aig lady was here again today. Maybe the aig should be pig. As they rape you over the coals with their fee's. I think they are the ones that are telling people they will help you pick which mutual funds to pick for an extra % of your money.
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable
Old 05-03-2007, 08:26 PM   #44
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable

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Originally Posted by OffRoadAudio
Yes - I truley am a minion from hell, due mostly to my low number of posts.

I do still keep a mutual fund, it's just that I have found a good way to make the money compound faster and greater, so to me - the money in the MF seems like a wasted opportunity. I guess I'll need to validate this so: I'm 34 and work only when I want to- when I'm 40, I'll be done. Real Estate.
Dang. I knew we were doing it all wrong. I'm 57 and work mostly when i don't want to - unplugging kitchen drains on Thanksgiving, letting in drunks who lost their keys at the bar at lo the freaking dark-thirty - dunno if I'll ever be done. Just drove to Salem to return a 3rd party check and pick up an apartment's partial month rent and the weekly excuses. Fielded calls from the unhappy lady who just had a triple bypass - moved her to a nicer downstairs apartment, didn't raise her rent or charge the carpet cleaning/touch-up fee - unfortunately I learn that the PO charges $25 to re-key mailboxes when someone moves into an apartment. Sorted that out with the PO and got the fee waived for her. - I'm sorry - what do I have to do with the US mail again?
In my experience over the last 30 or so years for the vast majority of the time real estate appreciates about at the rate of inflation. Heck of a good enforced savings program, rentals are a fine multi-skill job to buy.
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable
Old 05-03-2007, 09:27 PM   #45
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable

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Originally Posted by calmloki
Heck of a good enforced savings program, rentals are a fine multi-skill job to buy.
Very good point, and for the right guy a good plan.

Ha
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable
Old 05-04-2007, 12:25 AM   #46
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable

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Originally Posted by spideyrdpd
The average us salary according to wikepedia is about 50k. I think it was 2005 figures. Anyway So lets say the person can afford to put away 500 a month it would take 30 yrs to get to the million if he earns an avg of 10%
Which would be worth less than 500k of todays dollars due to inflation. Oh wait it gets better cause then he has to pay taxes.
Expecting people to save $500/month for 30 years is like expecting them to withdraw 4% per year for 30 years.

Regardless of how we spin the math, I'm not sure that I understand this "all or none" campaign. It's all about diversification!

We have our ER portfolio in stocks and we have money invested in a rental home. Both have done well over the last 18 years but the stocks have done better. At this point it's hard for the house to catch up, even if the portfolio reverts to the mean.

But maybe that's because we're not buying bonds or paying off mortgages, either.
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable
Old 05-04-2007, 12:44 AM   #47
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable

I've been intrigued by real estate investing in the past. Periodically we get some of these testosterone charged real estate investor posts singing the praises of one or two of their hero results. It sounds good. It clearly is working for them.

But when I looked into real estate in more detail, I realized that owning real estate typically requires you to be a landlord -- and a landlord has to choose appropriate property, find tenants, plan for required legal obligations, arrange financing, and direct or perform maintenance. The more of these tasks the landlord can do himself or herself, the better the investment performs. A single irresponsible tenant can have a devastating impact on real estate returns. If a tenant does not pay rent or refuses to pay for damages, the required court and lawyer’s fees reduce investment returns. It can takes months to evict a bad tenant. Not only the cost, but the time and energy required to exorcise them from the premises can be significant.

Investing in real estate can be lucrative for someone who wants to do all of the above, but it just sounds like a job to me. If you are making more money in real estate than I am with my index funds, you certainly deserve it. I spend my time traveling and playing.
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable
Old 05-04-2007, 01:53 AM   #48
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable

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Investing in real estate can be lucrative for someone who wants to do all of the above, but it just sounds like a job to me.
Agree. Today I had a guy clean my carpets. The job took maybe one hour and he charged $75. He had 3 other jobs in the same complex.

He is a one man, one truck operation. His van and equipment costs max $50,000. His only advertising is to court the office staff in large complexes, and to put fliers in supermarkets, etc. His strategy is to undercut the large companies on price. If he does only 6 per day, for only 200 days he grosses $90,000. The skill set needed is very narrow. The work is active but not really heavy.

He can go away for short periods without worry. His liability is limited. To me, this is a higher return to labor and some small skill than the average guy with rental property, with only the risk of not being able to get enough business to support yourself. In this case his rig still should have pretty good salvage value in a pretty broad market, so even this risk is bounded.

I am not suggesting that this is a good business for someone who could be a software entrepreneur, but more the average high school graduate who also could invest in property if he got a bit of capital. But the RE investor would have to keep his job for some years to support himself or a family, whereas this business would accomplish that.

He really isn’t building any equity as the RE investor often is, but he should have surplus funds to invest in index funds to accomplish that goal. Another negative is that he doesn’t have the huge upside potential of maybe buying in a crash and getting well in the recovery. But then he isn’t exposed to being early and getting his ass kicked either.

Ha
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable
Old 05-04-2007, 07:23 AM   #49
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable

Having lived in a college town now for 25 years, I'm convinced that you have 3 choices in real estate investing.
1. REITS
2. one rent house you take care of yourself
3. buy enough property that its your only business

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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable
Old 05-04-2007, 08:13 AM   #50
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable

Yup, rentals is not for the faint heart. Still working a vacancy: mice baits reveal another 2 dead mice; fridge is filthy beyond repair; don't ask about the bathroom; 2 dump runs to haul abandoned furniture; 2 abandon cars hauled. Entire unit has been repainted ... now steam clean the rugs; paint rather than replace the cabinets ... AND THEN rerent the place and start all over.

All in all not too bad ... I am thankful I didn't need to evict (he stifted me a month and a halfs rent).
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable
Old 05-04-2007, 09:21 AM   #51
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable

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Originally Posted by tryan
Yup, rentals is not for the faint heart. Still working a vacancy: mice baits reveal another 2 dead mice; fridge is filthy beyond repair; don't ask about the bathroom; 2 dump runs to haul abandoned furniture; 2 abandon cars hauled. Entire unit has been repainted ... now steam clean the rugs; paint rather than replace the cabinets ... AND THEN rerent the place and start all over.

All in all not too bad ... I am thankful I didn't need to evict (he stifted me a month and a halfs rent).
I own a 2-family in Boston and I think its the least painful way to invest in rental real estate. I rent the downstairs apartment out. In 10 years I've had 2 tenents who I got through Craigslist. I can keep an eye on the place, but seldom have to do anything. The rent pays 2/3 of the mortgage and the value of the place has more than doubled since I bought it. However, I put my retirement and after tax savings into index funds rather than more rentalproperties as I'd hate to have all my eggs in the real estate basket and dealing with more than one renter would be a worry and take up too much of my free time.
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable
Old 05-04-2007, 09:26 AM   #52
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable

Having attempted to read kiyosaki's article, I'm suprised once again that an investment columnist confuses a vehicle for investing (mutual fund, 401k, IRA) with the underlying investment (stock, bond, beev3r cheese EFT). I've seen this several times, and simply don't understand the confusion.

Quite honestly, I'm embarrassed for Yahoo.finance for having published this column.
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable
Old 05-04-2007, 09:28 AM   #53
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable

yeah, things can run seamlessly for years. 2 of the tenants in my SF have been in the place more than 10 years. Not looking forward to THAT cleanup when they leave.

It seems the more settled they get the more crud collects. Once filled 3 dumpsters after evicting a woman and her "husband" after they lived in the unit 18 years and raised 9 kids (many foster childern).
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable
Old 05-04-2007, 11:31 AM   #54
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable

Quote:
Originally Posted by tryan
Yup, rentals is not for the faint heart. Still working a vacancy: mice baits reveal another 2 dead mice; fridge is filthy beyond repair; don't ask about the bathroom; 2 dump runs to haul abandoned furniture; 2 abandon cars hauled. Entire unit has been repainted ... now steam clean the rugs; paint rather than replace the cabinets ... AND THEN rerent the place and start all over.

All in all not too bad ... I am thankful I didn't need to evict (he stifted me a month and a halfs rent).
I really like sgeeeee's " ... exorcise them from the premises ...." - somehow he sounds like someone with a handle on rentals! We don't worry too much about getting stiffed as long as we get the place back standing. It will only take work and $$ to get it back together. The expense i find myself less and less inclined to spend is the emotional coin. Dealing with the few rotters is tough on one's rosy outlook on life; enforcing payment and performance from folks who have made and continue to make bad choices, or who are just the butt of bad fortune, hurts. When my gal worked as a service advisor and then service manager for a # of Chevy dealerships she got to be the recipient of a lot of unhappy people screaming in her face. They (often) had a right to be unhappy and she would do her best to make warranty work for them and to bring about a good outcome. As years went by the effect of being screamed at changed her. I find myself less and less open and giving with my tenants - not the way i want to be. Don't like having my way of dealing with the world influenced in a negative way.
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable
Old 05-04-2007, 12:52 PM   #55
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable

On the carpet cleaner vs Software entrepreneur, carpet cleaning can't be outsourced (except to cheap illegal labor I guess) and done over the 'net . So, perhaps the manual laborer really has the upside in the future!
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable
Old 05-04-2007, 01:40 PM   #56
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable

I feel the same as sgeeee about RE. I just don't want the hassle of being a land lord.

I suspect that Calmloki's earlier post is a pretty accurate description of reality.

Regarding some prior posts, I think that you need to separate two questions:

1 - Can you make a lot of money in RE?
2 - Do Kiyosaki's books and articles add value?

I think that the answer to (1) is "yes" although I'm quite happy with the return on my index funds and am not convinced that over long time periods you will do any better on a risk adjusted basis in RE.

I haven't read any of Kiyosaki's book but I have read his Yahoo articles. So far I don't think that have been worth the time that it takes to read them except perhaps for entertainment value and I can read them very quickly.

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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable
Old 05-05-2007, 06:51 AM   #57
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable

i wouldnt be a landlord again ever ever ever. especially here in new york
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable
Old 05-05-2007, 06:56 AM   #58
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable

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Originally Posted by Milton
I agree that, in the long-term, it is all but impossible to "easily" average annual returns of 30%-50% in mutual funds. It is certainly possible to luck out like this once in a while, but such returns are exceptional.

As to whether it is possible to earn average annual returns of 30-50% on real estate: well, I have my doubts. It just doesn't seem sustainable to me. Your experience is apparently limited to less than two years, which I respectfully suggest is not sufficient to provide a reliable comparison. Various studies have suggested that in the long-term (25+ years), real estate gains have averaged about 2%, after taking inflation into account.

P.S. Generally speaking, I don't think that anyone's opinion is more or less valuable because of the number or scarcity of previous posts.

even here in nyc where values in real estate tend to exceed the country averages our home was 235,000 in 1987. today its worth double that.

most of the gains were very quick over 2 short time frames . the rest of the time we trended down for a while and then very slowly bounced back.

our funds are up over 10x that amount in the same 20 years.
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable
Old 05-05-2007, 10:49 AM   #59
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable

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Originally Posted by mathjak107

even here in nyc where values in real estate tend to exceed the country averages our home was 235,000 in 1987. today its worth double that.

most of the gains were very quick over 2 short time frames . the rest of the time we trended down for a while and then very slowly bounced back.

our funds are up over 10x that amount in the same 20 years.
In the past 25 years, the DJIA has averaged a CAGR of 11+% a year. And that does not require any maintenance or management.

I have owned 4 homes in four cities over 30 years and I concluded that renting is better than owning for us. Most of the maintenance issues go away. And we have been making good money on our equity, in fact so good that we have now achieved 3.5% SWR. We are also in a place where rental economics are favorable.
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable
Old 05-05-2007, 10:52 AM   #60
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Re: kiyosaki has reached new low - unbelievable

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And we have been making good money on our equity, in fact so good that we have now achieved 3.5% SWR. We are also in a place where rental economics are favorable.
The first factor you mentioned is nice but essentially luck. You could also be losing money on your "equity". The second factor IMO is structural and solid.

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