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Re: Krugman on Health Care Crisis
Old 03-07-2006, 10:53 AM   #41
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Re: Krugman on Health Care Crisis

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Originally Posted by Cute n' Fuzzy Bunny
As far as the a.h., I cant comment.* I'm not familiar with that particular degree.
And you said that with a straight face, too!
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Re: Krugman on Health Care Crisis
Old 03-07-2006, 10:53 AM   #42
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Re: Krugman on Health Care Crisis

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Originally Posted by Cute n' Fuzzy Bunny
Well, he IS well known as "america's looniest liberal pundit"...

Is this a case where someone is labeled by others as a nut because they disagree with him? Or are there facts to back this up? Such as the guy doesn't back up his claims with data, or that his data is faked.

If we have discussions about health care dismissed with claims that people are a**h***s or nutjobs, or whatever, we are never going to get anywhere on dealing with the healthcare problem. Of course, if people don't think there is a problem, we aren't going to get very far either.
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Re: Krugman on Health Care Crisis
Old 03-07-2006, 11:02 AM   #43
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Re: Krugman on Health Care Crisis

Here's the problem in a nutshell with changing the current system. Most people have (argueably) decent healthcare.

What the single payer system proposes is for most people to accept a somewhat worse system so that everyone can be covered. The degree to which the coverage for most people declines is the subject of the debate.

Some (the free lunch crowd) think that you can have all of the current goodies and still cover everyone. Others are very weary and plausibly think that we should be careful what we ask for.

The challenge is to get the majority of people to give up some of what they have now. That's a hard sell. Just look at government employees and union employee resistance to giving an inch on healthcare. That's an indication to the single payer proponents as to the uphill fight that they have.
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Re: Krugman on Health Care Crisis
Old 03-07-2006, 11:16 AM   #44
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Re: Krugman on Health Care Crisis

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Originally Posted by Martha
Is this a case where someone is labeled by others as a nut because they disagree with him? Or are there facts to back this up? Such as the guy doesn't back up his claims with data, or that his data is faked.

If we have discussions about health care dismissed with claims that people are a**h***s or nutjobs, or whatever, we are never going to get anywhere on dealing with the healthcare problem. Of course, if people don't think there is a problem, we aren't going to get very far either.
Whoa, whoa......whoa! Dont git your squirrel tail in a bunch, m'am! I'm in agreement on dealing with the healthcare issue. The 'label' is in fact that. But I dont equate a lack of data or facts with liberalism either. It appears from reading his stuff that he's liberally bent. Not that theres anything wrong with that.
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And you said that with a straight face, too!
Yes I Did.
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Re: Krugman on Health Care Crisis
Old 03-07-2006, 11:18 AM   #45
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Re: Krugman on Health Care Crisis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute n' Fuzzy Bunny
Whoa, whoa......whoa! Dont git your squirrel tail in a bunch, m'am! I'm in agreement on dealing with the healthcare issue. The 'label' is in fact that. But I dont equate a lack of data or facts with liberalism either. It appears from reading his stuff that he's liberally bent. Not that theres anything wrong with that.Yes I Did.
Yeah, I know that. I just wondered where Bennevis was coming from. I know where you come from.
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Re: Krugman on Health Care Crisis
Old 03-07-2006, 11:20 AM   #46
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Re: Krugman on Health Care Crisis

Ok, I didnt post ANY of the first 5 things i thought of.

Just so you know there IS actually SOME restraint...
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Re: Krugman on Health Care Crisis
Old 03-07-2006, 11:25 AM   #47
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Re: Krugman on Health Care Crisis

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Originally Posted by MasterBlaster
Here's the problem in a nutshell with changing the current system. Most people have (argueably) decent healthcare.

What the single payer system proposes is for most people to accept a somewhat worse system so that everyone can be covered. The degree to which the coverage for most people declines is the subject of the debate.

Some (the free lunch crowd) think that you can have all of the current goodies and still cover everyone. Others are very weary and plausibly think that we should be careful what we ask for.

The challenge is to get the majority of people to give up some of what they have now. That's a hard sell. Just look at government employees and union employee resistance to giving an inch on healthcare. That's an indication to the single payer proponents as to the uphill fight that they have.
Good points here. Medicaid is being cut throughout the county. Small employers are having a hard time providing insurance. Insurance companies want to insure healthy people not sick people. 45.8 million were uninsured in 2004 http://www.cbpp.org/8-30-05health.htm At some point they may be pissed.
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Re: Krugman on Health Care Crisis
Old 03-07-2006, 12:10 PM   #48
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Re: Krugman on Health Care Crisis

Quote:
The challenge is to get the majority of people to give up some of what they have now. That's a hard sell. Just look at government employees and union employee resistance to giving an inch on healthcare. That's an indication to the single payer proponents as to the uphill fight that they have.
It seems reasonable that folks with employer sponsored health care dont want to pick up the tab of huge cost increases esp. when some of it is from cost shifting (somebody has to pay the true costs of health care for low medicaid and medicare reimbursements). Employers dont want to pay it either, so I figure they will be the a.h.'s that actually have the power to get things changed.
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Re: Krugman on Health Care Crisis
Old 03-07-2006, 04:20 PM   #49
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Re: Krugman on Health Care Crisis

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterBlaster

What the single payer system proposes is for most people to accept a somewhat worse system so that everyone can be covered. The degree to which the coverage for most people declines is the subject of the debate.

Some (the free lunch crowd) think that you can have all of the current goodies and still cover everyone. Others are very weary and plausibly think that we should be careful what we ask for.
I don't think single payer with provider choice guarantees a worse system for everyone, if we did something like a HDHP for everyone. You and/or your employer contribute tax-free to an HSA. Maybe add credits for those with low income. The gov't only pays for those that exceed the high deductible, for the tax break, and for any low income contributions, and the only time doctors deal with the feds is when you go over the deductible. If you have the dough, you can always just pay the doctor more or go to private only doctors. The feds only act as an insurer, and give most tax incentives.

I don't think it's "the free lunch crowd" behind this. The government is already paying for 40-60% of the health care. The difference is, it has entirely different programs for veterans, old people, old poor people, poor people, and gov't employees. And YOU are already paying for the uninsured to get the most expensive health care available, at the ER. We pay so much and get so little currently, it's almost impossible to think of a more expensive, less effective system.

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Re: Krugman on Health Care Crisis
Old 03-07-2006, 06:52 PM   #50
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Re: Krugman on Health Care Crisis

I'll certainly second WW4Beer's above sentiment!

Quote:
...The government is already paying for 40-60% of the health care.* The difference is, it has entirely different programs for veterans, old people, old poor people, poor people, and gov't employees.* And YOU are already paying for the uninsured to get the most expensive health care available, at the ER...
The US govt already pays as much (on a per capita basis) to insure "...veterans, old people, old poor people, poor people, and gov't employees... " as other countries pay to insure ALL of their citizens.** *

This would be one thing if this 'inefficiency' were a fraction of a percent or less of the CDP but, in this case, we are talking about 16-20% of the entire US GDP.* These huge cost inefficiencies are occurring and increasing numbers of American citizens are not being provided for.

Currently, this govt oversight impacts "only" 48 M citizens but I fear that even more citizens will be soon cut loose to fend for themselves in the HC minefields.

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Re: Krugman on Health Care Crisis
Old 03-07-2006, 07:14 PM   #51
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Re: Krugman on Health Care Crisis

Well lets think about that HDHP model where the healthcare over the limit is funded by govenment.

What if next year or every next year we want to hold down gov't spending. That's when the rules start which means some people can't get the healthcare they want when they want it. Or that only certain types of healthcare get funded.

It would be inevitable for limits and delays to occur. Maybe that's like the HMO from hell.

Personally, I'm not worried about healthcare below the HDHP limits. I'm worried about healthcare above the limits. That's when you really need it.
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