Landlords - I need your advice!!!

[mangodance]

We are in the prelim stages of talking to our landlord about buying the building we're in (an 8-plex). Not sure if it will happen. But we want to get into rentals as a way to suppliment our ER plan.

We would plan on living in the building for somewhere between 7-10 years. ..and hope to pay off the building by 15.

So, I've been reading various posts from the last few years. But in anutshell, do any of you landlords have some tips? Any rules of thumb on price vs. rents? etc

I credit this board for the interest we have in rentals. I'm hoping to get in slow by living in the 1st one we buy, and not buy others until we're paid off on this one.

Also, if there is a another forum for just landlording, that y'all might feel would be a beneficial suppliment to this one, please let me know.

 

[ADJ]

There's a lot to know before investing in apartment buildings. You'll have to determine total expenses, debt service and net operating income. Verify, verify, verify any and all the numbers you get from the seller. The rule of thumb is to assume that expenses on the building will run around 45% of rent roll. Try to obtain a cap rate of 10% (if you can do this, this is a sure winner). To find out more about how to calculate capitalization rates and how to determine whether this would be sound investment, consider the following websites:

thecreativeinvestor.com and reiclub.com.

 

[Mr._johngalt]

There's a lot to know before investing in apartment buildings. You'll have to determine total expenses, debt service and net operating income. Verify, verify, verify any and all the numbers you get from the seller. The rule of thumb is to assume that expenses on the building will run around 45% of rent roll. Try to obtain a cap rate of 10% (if you can do this, this is a sure winner). To find out more about how to calculate capitalization rates and how to determine whether this would be sound investment, consider the following websites:

thecreativeinvestor.com and reiclub.com.

Doubt this will help anyone, but after decades of RE infatuation I can
normally tell at a glance if a "deal" has any potential at all. Many many
properties are sure losers (most are sold anyway - draw your own conclusions). Some are absolute no-brainer winners. Now, I even pass
on those. Want no intrusions on my free time. I resent every minute
that I lose.

"Deadlines and commitments; what to leave in, what to leave out?"
Bob Seger.

JG

 

[mangodance]

I should fill in some blanks. We've rented here about 10-11 years. We're looking at it as a hybrid = our mortgage as well as it being pure investment down the road. We know the building well and have been in all apartments every few years. It is a LARGE victorian house cut up into 5 apartments. The carriage house out back by the alley has two apartments. The garages are all rented out and equal one cheap rent.

So, here's the skinny.

Landlord is willing to do a deal without realtors.

We're close to a couple of colleges, bus lines, hospitals, etc. I'm not sure what rent roll is, but I'm guessing it is the turnover in tenants. There isn't a high degree, but it happens. ..mostly because people finish school or are buying their own. The neighborhood assoc here no longer allows houses to be cut up for rentals of more than 2-3 units...regardless of how large the properties are.

We've watched this place sell twice...but had a lot of debt. We no longer have any debt even though the last year was a trauma/emergency-ridden year. However, we don't have a lot left in emergency savings. We have no pockmarks on our credit.

So, we'd be thinking about 100% finance. Rents other than ours would probably cover the mortgage at current rate and we won't find out the asking price until tomorrow. We think we can make an extra $500/month principle payment (in addition to using every spare cent to pay down principle).

Just guessing at the asking price, the rents, plus our input would about have us break even (other than the extra payments mentioned about) when compared to mortgage + utilities + insurance (higher due to the number of apts). However, we'd end up with TWICE the space we have (desperately needed).

Intangibles: The landlord will be selling next year, and we would very likely be looking at moving or a rent increase anyway. The place is 5 mins from wife's work. Moving would be an enormous upheval as we are working other jobs to help our situation (further $ for principle).

Both of us work and have stable jobs. Not huge $$$ but enough to deal with this, especially if other folks are paying our mortgage.

In 74 months I get a pension, and will also start another job.

I know this all sounds pretty green...and it is. But we feel we've rented long enough...and this may be an opportunity to buy, plus add a facet to our "retirement".

Thoughts?

 

[Enuff2Eat]

bigfoot,

i admire your courage. at your age people are looking to slow down and do much less... on the other hand, you're looking for challenge. From now on, i will shut up and stop complaining.

as far as your deal go, i think you got your hand-full with this project. 100%, 0% down deals works in very rare cases, and in such situation you will need a good cash reserve on hands. what happened if the furnance or the ac unit goes out? or tenants are moving out and you're facing with vacancy. you might have to come up with a couple thousands of dollars to fix the situation, unless you can do it yourself. Even if you can do itself you still need one more important thing. yes, TIME.

overall, all i can say is check, re-check, check and double check again the number. my philosophy in life is simple. NO GUTS NO GLORY but understand the difference between investing and speculating.

good luck

enuff

 

[mangodance]

<grin> I'm not really retirement age. I'm just 74 months from reaching the minimum number of years to qualify for state govt retirement. Doing that, and working another job, we hope to pay off the property early...as early as will be humanly possible.

The 100% finance would be necessity now...wouldn't be in a year or two (we're pretty thrifty these days). So, we estimate having that 20% stake in about 3-4 years at conservative estimates. We would of course apply additional monies as well as stop our non-matching 401Ks and Roths and use those $$ towards principle and emergency account. We'd want 100%, because we pretty much turned our largish emergency account into a smallish one. If water heater blew or we'd need a roof, we could cover it...but we don't want to pony up the $$$ just to cover the up front costs or equity just because of emergencies like those you mention. The truth is, with no debt, we don't have anything else huge to cover, and are thinking we could treat this as our own mortgage and have other tenants help pay for it, but know we'd be moving in 10-15 years one it is paid for and keeping this place as fully-owned investment.

Additionally, the doubling of our living space is something we want...but don't necessarily HAVE to have. We'd be doing it by getting rid of another tenant (in effect keeping 2 apartments).

I don't yet have full numbers just because we're just about to start dickering. But I think we've been conservative about income and what we can pay into the mix, and liberal on expenses.

But, listening to horror stories and being fearful over lawsuits, would I be better getting the mortgage under a LLC and renting from myself in order to have only the house as a lawsuit liability if things go wrong?

 

[mangodance]

BTW, I wanted to mention the hard figures I do have show total rent for the property brings in $3650/month...including our rent. Add to that $375/month insurance and around $450/500 month owner-paid utilities.

 

[califdreamer]

Hi bigfoot,

I'm all for investing in aparment buildings but doing your homework is essential. The stakes are high. Here are a few things that came to mind as I read your posts:

1. Every apartment market goes through its own cycle. I don't know where you're located but I'd make sure I knew what the vacancy rate is in my market and what new construction is coming down the pike (your future competition). What are the prospects for job growth? occupancy growth? rental income growth?

2. It is very difficult to buy apt bldgs in most parts of the country at an 8 CAP rate or better (see references mentioned in earlier post to make sure you understand CAP rates). My guess is that with 100% financing you will not be able to break even.

3. If you make an offer, work very hard during your due diligence period to find out about rents, occupancy, latest rent increases, tenant payment histories, deferred maintenance, etc. Pay special attention to the condition of the roof, the HVAC system, electrical and plumbing. As you project future expenses keep in mind that your property tax bill will be higher than the previous owner's (possibly much higher!).

4. Are you certain this is the best income property you can buy right now if you were to shop around? The building you happen to be living in may or may not be the best deal around.

5. You mentioned you're in a campus area. Are you prepared to deal with students as your tenants? How's occupancy during summer break? How's the wear and tear? How's the noise level?

This may be a terrific deal. I don't mean to pile on with negative thinking. I do urge you to work hard at determining if this is the deal for you. Good luck

 

[Mr._johngalt]

Hi bigfoot,

I'm all for investing in aparment buildings but doing your homework is essential. The stakes are high. Here are a few things that came to mind as I read your posts:

1. Every apartment market goes through its own cycle. I don't know where you're located but I'd make sure I knew what the vacancy rate is in my market and what new construction is coming down the pike (your future competition). What are the prospects for job growth? occupancy growth? rental income growth?

2. It is very difficult to buy apt bldgs in most parts of the country at an 8 CAP rate or better (see references mentioned in earlier post to make sure you understand CAP rates). My guess is that with 100% financing you will not be able to break even.

3. If you make an offer, work very hard during your due diligence period to find out about rents, occupancy, latest rent increases, tenant payment histories, deferred maintenance, etc. Pay special attention to the condition of the roof, the HVAC system, electrical and plumbing. As you project future expenses keep in mind that your property tax bill will be higher than the previous owner's (possibly much higher!).

4. Are you certain this is the best income property you can buy right now if you were to shop around? The building you happen to be living in may or may not be the best deal around.

5. You mentioned you're in a campus area. Are you prepared to deal with students as your tenants? How's occupancy during summer break? How's the wear and tear? How's the noise level?

This may be a terrific deal. I don't mean to pile on with negative thinking. I do urge you to work hard at determining if this is the deal for you. Good luck

This is a very good post. One of the things that makes it so hard to
get a "buy" in rental property is all of the uninformed buyers
competing with you. I'm talkin' about the people who wake up one
day and say "Oh, we should buy an apartment building!". It's like
when you go to an auction and end up bidding against some doofus
who has no clue what the item is worth. They just decided
(for some reason) that they want to buy it.

JG

 

[Mr._johngalt]

<grin> I'm not really retirement age. I'm just 74 months from reaching the minimum number of years to qualify for state govt retirement. Doing that, and working another job, we hope to pay off the property early...as early as will be humanly possible.

The 100% finance would be necessity now...wouldn't be in a year or two (we're pretty thrifty these days). So, we estimate having that 20% stake in about 3-4 years at conservative estimates. We would of course apply additional monies as well as stop our non-matching 401Ks and Roths and use those $$ towards principle and emergency account. We'd want 100%, because we pretty much turned our largish emergency account into a smallish one. If water heater blew or we'd need a roof, we could cover it...but we don't want to pony up the $$$ just to cover the up front costs or equity just because of emergencies like those you mention. The truth is, with no debt, we don't have anything else huge to cover, and are thinking we could treat this as our own mortgage and have other tenants help pay for it, but know we'd be moving in 10-15 years one it is paid for and keeping this place as fully-owned investment.

Additionally, the doubling of our living space is something we want...but don't necessarily HAVE to have. We'd be doing it by getting rid of another tenant (in effect keeping 2 apartments).

I don't yet have full numbers just because we're just about to start dickering. But I think we've been conservative about income and what we can pay into the mix, and liberal on expenses.

But, listening to horror stories and being fearful over lawsuits, would I be better getting the mortgage under a LLC and renting from myself in order to have only the house as a lawsuit liability if things go wrong?

The LLC means a little more paperwork and you will be personally
liable on the debt in any case. Re. "lawsuit liability", that's a worry for sure.
I never had a problem in all my years of landlording (I was mostly
suing my tenants for damage and back rent) . Sooooooo, in my case
the "corporate shield" from a liability point of view has not been of much use. Still glad to have it though.

JG

 

[tryan]

The rule of thumb is to assume that expenses on the building will run around 45% of rent roll.

This is spot-on ... I've got nearly 20 years of data on the units I've owned. Expences - as a percentage of rent - will be like this: 15% maintenance, 12% taxes; 2% insurance; 2% water/utilities; 5% vacancy. Any variation will either create a PROFIT or a negative cash flow (if you're squeezing the numbers).

Always said plan to pay the mortgage with HALF the rents. Any more and you're looking at NO profit and/or a negative cashflow. With a negative cashflow, I'ld keep renting ... let somebody subsidize YOUR apt. (rather than subsidizing 7 others).

 

[Martha]

Bigfoot, this is the kind of property we live in and have owned for the last 9 years. As well as the comments from other posters, I would have the property inspected by someone who really knows what they are doing. The big issue will be expenses and whether there is defered maintenance. For example, our 103 year old place has big tall beautiful brick chimneys. We had to have some chimney work done on the top of one of the chimneys. Cost us $6000. Partly because it was so hard for the brick guy to get up there.

In the first year we had to replace the roof and replace an outside staircase that provided an emergency exit.

So, be sure you know what maintenance has been defered. We like our place. It has a lot of character. But old buildings need work to keep them nice.

EDIT: Where are you going to get financing? I believe that you can't get typical homeowner loans if there is more than 4 units in the building. This means you likely will have financing at a variable rate. Keep in mind that risk as well.

 

[tryan]

end up bidding against some doofus
who has no clue what the item is worth

Reminds me of the neighboring property to one of my rentals. A condemned Fannie Mae property which needs to be demolished and sits in the street on a postage stamp lot.

Realtor calls me and says it's on the market at 95k! I laugh, cite all the problems (no water or septic, sits in the street .... ) tell him to call me when the place is marked down below 45k. Weeellll a month later some young buck is taking down the For Sale sign staring wide eye'd at the place he just bought. Last word is the town wants it demo'd ... no word on if he can re-build.

Stay-tuned ......

 

[tednvon]

Hi,
, again congrats on the courage and plan...can it work, sure...with hard work and some luck...
Luck...1. good renters at least the first few years...no hassels, no empty units, no back rents to chase.
Luck...2. no major structural problems for a while...roof, leaks, AC, furnace, electrical etc...
Hard work...learn how to do basic plumbing, electrical, painting, installing dishwashers, stoves, landscaping, cleaning chimneys, cleaning gutters, snow removal, and so on...

Sounds real simple but for us this formula really proved to true for us when we bought condos to rent in our developement..."If you cannot gross minimum 1% of value of the property do not do it!!" For example, if the property is worth 300,000, minimum monthly rental income should be at least $3000.....MINIMUM, especially if you have a huge mortgage. 1 1/2-2% is ideal

And if you have cash flow and positive profit, think twice about paying down the mortgage and stow that money away for the future. Do you think any successful real estate tycoon ever pays on his priciple, heck no, he pays the minimum puts the cash away and then uses equity to buy more properties...I'll bet Donald Trump never paid off one property he owned, not even close!!

Keep us posted....Ted

 

[nun]

Bigfoot,
I'd warn against getting an 8 unit building. Its a lot to take on both in work and capital. With 7 tenants you'll always be dealing with issues and repairs. I've owned a 2 family for 10 years and its worked out well as I've been able to get good tenants and dealing with only one renter makes things relaxed. I can imagine dealing with 2 tenants, but more would be too much of a work load.

 

[Martha]

Sounds real simple but for us this formula really proved to true for us when we bought condos to rent in our developement..."If you cannot gross minimum 1% of value of the property do not do it!!" For example, if the property is worth 300,000, minimum monthly rental income should be at least $3000.....MINIMUM, especially if you have a huge mortgage. 1 1/2-2% is ideal

I have heard this formula before. It won't work in my community unless the property is really run down. For good quality properties, you are going to gross less than a minimum of 1% of the value per month.

 

[nun]

I have heard this formula before. It won't work in my community unless the property is really run down. For good quality properties, you are going to gross less than a minimum of 1% of the value per month.

I agree. My two family is probably worth $600k, $350k for my 3 bed unit and $250k for the one bedroom unit below. I get $1200 per month rent out of the one bed unit. That works out at 0.05% per month, not so good by the formula. However, owning a comparatively small rental investment has its advantages.

1) I didn't sink all my capital into the place and my mortgage isn't so high that I would have difficulty paying it if the rental unit was empty.
2) I only have to deal with one renter and repairs and capital improvements are not outrageously expensive.
3) The rent pays just over half my mortgage, and as I was able to afford a 15 year mortgage at 4.5% I've been paying off principal at a great rate and now have lots of equity.
4) If I ever want to get at my equity its easier to sell a 2 family that a big condo unit.

If you live in an area with 2 or 3 family homes they can be a great investment.

 

[Mr._johngalt]

I have heard this formula before. It won't work in my community unless the property is really run down. For good quality properties, you are going to gross less than a minimum of 1% of the value per month.

I am not an active landlord any more but I was aware of this formula also.
The condo started at 1.44% and I am now at 1.17% (value has gone up faster than the rent).

JG

 

[spideyrdpd]

You should post all the numbers. You can post it on the richdad forum and I am sure you would get some feedback.
The biggest issue would be that a 8 unit is commercial and your not going to get funding at 100%. You would need to either find some place to get the money or work something out with the seller. Either seller financing or maybe a lease option deal.
Oh and whatever you do dont throw all your money back in to pay off the property. As mentioned there will be expenses. Better to have some money thats sitting in an account somewhere that you can reach out and access.

 

[Mr._johngalt]

You should post all the numbers. You can post it on the richdad forum and I am sure you would get some feedback.
The biggest issue would be that a 8 unit is commercial and your not going to get funding at 100%. You would need to either find some place to get the money or work something out with the seller. Either seller financing or maybe a lease option deal.
Oh and whatever you do dont throw all your money back in to pay off the property. As mentioned there will be expenses. Better to have some money thats sitting in an account somewhere that you can reach out and access.

The last apartment deal I seriously looked at was a 16 unit. If I had bought, it would have been my largest ever. My thinking was that at
that size I could afford a live-in manager (there was one in place at that time), and I was only an hour away. What manly killed the deal was one central heating system,
which can lead to all sorts of trouble. BTW, I always tried to buy with
absolute minimal OOP (out of pocket) and used OPM (other people's
money) to the max.

JG

 

[tryan]

The rent pays just over half my mortgage

You've got ALOT of equity ... can't imagine $1200 paying half of a 650k mortgage. That's the point of the "formula"/guideline.

With the run-up in prices over the last 10 years ... I am a seller. Veeerrryy difficult to make the numbers "work" at todays prices; but that doesn't stop some from trying. Heck just listen to the sellers, realtors, appraisers, home inspectors, lawyers .... they'll talk you into it - just so THEY get paid.

 

[nun]

You've got ALOT of equity ... can't imagine $1200 paying half of a 650k mortgage. That's the point of the "formula"/guideline.

With the run-up in prices over the last 10 years ... I am a seller. Veeerrryy difficult to make the numbers "work" at todays prices; but that doesn't stop some from trying. Heck just listen to the sellers, realtors, appraisers, home inspectors, lawyers .... they'll talk you into it - just so THEY get paid.

The mortgage is for $300k, I bought in 1997. I'm being realistic about the value of the house to take into account the recent down turn in the market, comparables sold for $750k a couple of years ago. With a 15 year mortgage at 4.5% fixed I'm now only paying a few hundred dollars in interest each month. Its nothing spectacular, but has been a good investment. I look at it like this, the rent covers the mortgage for the downstairs apartment. I'm close to owning the place outright at which point I can either just take the $1200/month income or sell, buy a smaller place and invest the remainder.