Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-22-2010, 02:31 PM   #81
Moderator Emeritus
Bestwifeever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,375
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinanceDude View Post
It is quite simple really, makes perfect sense. Vanguard holds VERY LITTLE cash in reserve for redemptions. Since VG is a passive investment company, they want folks to invest and stay in the funds. Most fund managers keept 3-5% in cash for redemptions, VG is more like 1% or so. Just a different way of doing things......I got that from a VG manager who was at a meeting I went to, he was talking about their ETF portfolios, but was asked about it at a Q&A........
Ah, so allowing frequent deposits after a withdrawal has been made (withdrawals are not restricted, by the way, which is interesting if they don't have the cash on hand to honor redemptions) might disrupt Vanguard's management strategy? Oh, wait, that's what Vanguard said was the reason, wasn't it? ......
__________________

__________________
“Would you like an adventure now, or would you like to have your tea first?” J.M. Barrie, Peter Pan
Bestwifeever is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 12-22-2010, 03:06 PM   #82
Moderator
Alan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Eee Bah Gum
Posts: 21,132
Quote:
Originally Posted by 73ss454 View Post
Would you believe Moses?
Isn't he the guy who manages VG's Wellesley funds? (ps - that was a joke)

+1 for the folks who are infrequent traders and don't mind at all the frequent trading restrictions.

As well as VG, we also have a large chunk in Fidelity with all of DW's IRA's and like them as a company to deal with as well. They certainly made the process of her 401k rollover very easy, and their Spartan funds have nice low costs.
__________________

__________________
Retired in Jan, 2010 at 55, moved to England in May 2016
Now it's adventure before dementia
Alan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2010, 03:50 PM   #83
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 2,951
Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo View Post
Dude, put down the shovel...
+1....aka "The First Rule of Holes"
__________________
...with no reasonable expectation for ER, I'm just here auditing the AP class.Retired 8/1/15.
jazz4cash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2010, 04:41 PM   #84
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Major Tom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SF East Bay
Posts: 3,129
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinanceDude View Post
It is someone's opinion, they have the right to that, right? It is ok to be a fan of VG and an investor of VG, but folks should be a little less prickly, as even they make mistakes..........and piss people off, and don't do what they say, noone's perfect, not even VG.........
Of course he's welcome to his opinion. I disagreed with his characterization of VG, that's all.
__________________
Major Tom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2010, 05:14 PM   #85
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: North of Montana
Posts: 2,753
Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo View Post
Dude, put down the shovel...
In all seriousness, which dude?
__________________
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate conclusions from insufficient data and ..
kumquat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 07:48 AM   #86
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Tom View Post
+1

Also, how seriously can you take a post in which the OP calls Vanguard "a nickel and dime store"?
13 months ago I rolled $90K into VG and they put it in the current MM fund which they said was my MM sweep acct. The next week I bought $20K each of GNMA, and 2 other funds, leaving $30K still in the MM fund.

So a total of 3 transactions in 13 months. All buys into their funds. Now I want to unload the GNMA before I have no gain and I cannot do it in 1 transaction.

I think 'Nickel and Dime' is an understatement considering they will let me take $20K from the fund 3 times, but will come up with stupid gimmicks to thwart my redemption. VG is OK, if you still follow buy and hold, i.e. ride em up and ride em down, but I take my finances a little more 'seriously' and prefer a positive return on my money.
__________________
jayc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 08:01 AM   #87
Moderator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rocky Inlets
Posts: 24,487
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayc View Post
13 months ago I rolled $90K into VG and they put it in the current MM fund which they said was my MM sweep acct. The next week I bought $20K each of GNMA, and 2 other funds, leaving $30K still in the MM fund.

So a total of 3 transactions in 13 months. All buys into their funds. Now I want to unload the GNMA before I have no gain and I cannot do it in 1 transaction.

I think 'Nickel and Dime' is an understatement considering they will let me take $20K from the fund 3 times, but will come up with stupid gimmicks to thwart my redemption. VG is OK, if you still follow buy and hold, i.e. ride em up and ride em down, but I take my finances a little more 'seriously' and prefer a positive return on my money.
Which MM fund is this? They have a number of alternatives, some of which are no longer open. If you were to change MM funds would the same restriction exist?
__________________
MichaelB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 08:53 AM   #88
Moderator Emeritus
Bestwifeever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,375
You probably should move to another firm because you won't ever be happy with VG now, it sounds like. If I were you, I would want to understand from VG exactly why I couldn't move the proceeds of the GNMA into the MM fund so it doesn't happen again at another firm which might also have restrictions.

-It sounds like there is a maximum of $40K that you could have in the MM account and you still had $30K in it. Which MM account is that?
-You could redeem all of the GNMA but put only $10K into the current MM fund and VG wants to put the rest of the GNMA into a different MM fund for you. Which MM do they want to use now?
-You said earlier that initially VG picked the original MM fund. Did they not give you information about it and did you not approve it?
__________________
“Would you like an adventure now, or would you like to have your tea first?” J.M. Barrie, Peter Pan
Bestwifeever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 08:55 AM   #89
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB View Post
Which MM fund is this? They have a number of alternatives, some of which are no longer open. If you were to change MM funds would the same restriction exist?
Federal something. The first tier rep I talked too would not make a suggestion. I have not researched another selection but other members have said there are others with no restrictions.

Thanks to all who made suggestions and did the trial transaction on GNMA.
__________________
jayc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 09:00 AM   #90
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
REWahoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas Hill Country
Posts: 42,134
This link will take you to a list of all Vanguard funds. The money market funds are listed first and you will see which are closed (the first two) and which are available without restriction.
__________________
Numbers is hard

When I hit 70, it hit back

Retired in 2005 at age 58, no pension
REWahoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 09:05 AM   #91
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
DblDoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,224
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayc View Post
VG is OK, if you still follow buy and hold, i.e. ride em up and ride em down, but I take my finances a little more 'seriously' and prefer a positive return on my money.
You definitely want to find a different broker, VG rules will inhibit you from timing the market. They do it on purpose so I'm unclear why you invested with them in the first place.

DD
__________________
At 54% of FIRE target
DblDoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 09:07 AM   #92
Moderator Emeritus
Bestwifeever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,375
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayc View Post
Federal something. The first tier rep I talked too would not make a suggestion. I have not researched another selection but other members have said there are others with no restrictions.

Thanks to all who made suggestions and did the trial transaction on GNMA.
This one (closed June 2, 2009)?

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/fun...T#hist=tab%3A3
__________________
“Would you like an adventure now, or would you like to have your tea first?” J.M. Barrie, Peter Pan
Bestwifeever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 09:52 AM   #93
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,287
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayc View Post
13 months ago I rolled $90K into VG and they put it in the current MM fund which they said was my MM sweep acct. The next week I bought $20K each of GNMA, and 2 other funds, leaving $30K still in the MM fund.

So a total of 3 transactions in 13 months. All buys into their funds. Now I want to unload the GNMA before I have no gain and I cannot do it in 1 transaction.

I think 'Nickel and Dime' is an understatement considering they will let me take $20K from the fund 3 times, but will come up with stupid gimmicks to thwart my redemption. VG is OK, if you still follow buy and hold, i.e. ride em up and ride em down, but I take my finances a little more 'seriously' and prefer a positive return on my money.


It would be interesting to know the MM fund so people here can see what it says....

There is NO restriction on you moving your money OUT of the fund you want to sell... NONE... the restriction (now that we have fleshed it out) is on BUYING into a fund... many funds have buying restrictions... that is why you have to decide if you want to sell that fund....

As an example... I have money in Primecap... it has a buy restriction... I think $25K a year... I have over $100K in there... I can sell that $100K right now... the problem is if I want to get back in... first, if I got the account down to zero I will not be able to invest in the fund until it opens again (my account would be 'closed')... but if I went down to $1,000... I could start to invest into that fund but only $25K this year... so it would take me 4 years to get back to where I am now...

It is all spelled out on their site... when I sold some of Primecap a few months ago... it told me that I would not be able to buy any for 90 days and that my annual limit was $25K... I bet when you sold your MM, it gave you a warning... you might not remember or might have ignored it... but I have seen them enough to know you are warned...


No big deal to me... I could care less if you stay or go.... just saying that it is not a 'nickel and dime' organization...
__________________
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 09:55 AM   #94
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Major Tom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SF East Bay
Posts: 3,129
I can understand your frustration jayc. In retrospect, I shouldn't have jumped on you for the nickel and dime comment; it led to a series of exchanges in this thread that were counter-productive.

I notice that you mentioned talking to a VG rep on the phone. Have you asked them why you weren't allowed to make that final transaction? Although at this point it's pretty obvious that VG is not the broker for you, it would be instructive to understand the exact reason. I would have thought that they could answer that question for you.

Good luck with your next broker; I'm assuming you'll be looking for another one pretty soon.
__________________
Major Tom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 10:02 AM   #95
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 7,531
jayc, like others are suggesting, you might be better served with a different brokerage firm/mutual fund provider. Fidelity and Schwab seem commonly recommended, and I can personally recommend Fidelity. You can buy (and sell) Vanguard's Exchange Traded Funds which are available for most of their mutual fund options. Just pay a small commission each time (under $10 usually) and trade as often as you want.

If you continue to buy mutual funds direct from Vanguard, be very careful of the trading restrictions and early redemption fees. Some will charge a percent if you sell the funds within one to five years. Not a big deal for most investors that are holding long term, but it can be a big deal if you want to sell more often. Even long term buy and hold investors may want to sell more often than every 5 years to take advantage of tax loss harvesting.
__________________
Retired in 2013 at age 33. Keeping busy reading, blogging, relaxing, gaming, and enjoying the outdoors with my wife and 3 kids (5, 11, and 12).
FUEGO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 10:11 AM   #96
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 7,531
jayc, I think I see what you are talking about on my accounts. I have the VG Admiral Treasury MM fund and the VG Federal Money Market Fund. I tried buying more than $10,000 in each of these funds, and it does not allow me to do so, stating that there is a $10,000 purchase limit per fund per day.

The solution is to open the "VG Prime Money Market fund" and you can make unlimited purchases in that fund. It yields more than the other MM funds anyway (by a few basis points).

Another thing to point out, and something that took me a while to wrap my head around. Vanguard doesn't have a "sweep" account in their mutual fund accounts. There are only specific money market funds that are basically cash accounts. But you have to think of them as just another mutual fund in your account. When you sell something and put the proceeds into your cash account, you are actually "exchanging" shares of the fund you are selling for shares of the money market fund you are putting the sales proceeds into. It's a little complicated since it is different from how most other brokerage accounts do it.
__________________
Retired in 2013 at age 33. Keeping busy reading, blogging, relaxing, gaming, and enjoying the outdoors with my wife and 3 kids (5, 11, and 12).
FUEGO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 12:00 PM   #97
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,287
Quote:
Originally Posted by FUEGO View Post
jayc, I think I see what you are talking about on my accounts. I have the VG Admiral Treasury MM fund and the VG Federal Money Market Fund. I tried buying more than $10,000 in each of these funds, and it does not allow me to do so, stating that there is a $10,000 purchase limit per fund per day.

The solution is to open the "VG Prime Money Market fund" and you can make unlimited purchases in that fund. It yields more than the other MM funds anyway (by a few basis points).

Another thing to point out, and something that took me a while to wrap my head around. Vanguard doesn't have a "sweep" account in their mutual fund accounts. There are only specific money market funds that are basically cash accounts. But you have to think of them as just another mutual fund in your account. When you sell something and put the proceeds into your cash account, you are actually "exchanging" shares of the fund you are selling for shares of the money market fund you are putting the sales proceeds into. It's a little complicated since it is different from how most other brokerage accounts do it.

That is why I asked if he had a brokerage account... if you do there IS a sweep account...

Also, if you do not reinvest dividends, you can think of the MM account as a sweep...
__________________
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 01:13 PM   #98
Recycles dryer sheets
Tractor guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 105
I have my dividends and sales going directly into Vanguard's Prime Money Market (VMMXX) and have never had the problems the OP raised. I rolled a lot of money through it last year when I consolidated my inheritance and never had any restrictions. There is a minimum $3K investment in this but my IRA account only has ~$1.2K in the money market so it must be less for IRA accounts.

I kind of vaguelly remember that I had to select a MM account to sweep my brokerage accounts into when I set them up and that there was a Federal MM as one of the options. But that was many years ago. I can't remember why I picked Prime MM at the time but it seems to be more flexible.

To the OP: Its a shame that the Vanguard rep didn't really understand what you were trying to do or explain your options well. It looks like you locked into trying to exchange your original shares for your Federal MM and weren't allowed to do that because of limits on the closed MM fund. If you had understood that this was the problem, you could have just elected to open a new Prime Money market fund & exchange for that & we would never have had this discussion.

Lorne
__________________
Tractor guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 02:01 PM   #99
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bestwifeever View Post
Thanks Bestwife, I was looking for that info before I called them. .
__________________
jayc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 02:07 PM   #100
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by DblDoc View Post
You definitely want to find a different broker, VG rules will inhibit you from timing the market. They do it on purpose so I'm unclear why you invested with them in the first place.

DD
I did not think one sell in 12 months would be considered timing the market.

Is it like Hotel California, you can check in but never check out.
__________________

__________________
jayc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
need help with moving roth ira to vanguard..should i wait or do it ASAP? dooo42 FIRE and Money 2 07-28-2010 09:29 PM
Take SS ASAP and Invest it instead of waiting? Dennis FIRE and Money 38 01-20-2009 05:45 AM
Help ASAP: FIRE Calculator tangomonster FIRE and Money 40 11-13-2008 11:26 AM
24 and want to retire ASAP xynny Hi, I am... 19 06-04-2008 06:15 AM
Need opinion on insurance ASAP, please Lena Young Dreamers 4 06-08-2006 09:36 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:44 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.