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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-10-2006, 03:05 PM   #41
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

I don't think that there is a correlation between spending less and better health outcomes. I think it shows that it is possible to have a universal care system and still spend less on health care than we do now.

Are overweight, stress and cigarette smoking not subjects dealt with by health care systems? I agree that we do a poor job of controlling these.

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I think that if any of the 180+ other countries in the world were doing it both cheaper AND better, not necessarily just one or the other, that their method would have been shamelessly copied by now.
Uh...they all are copying each other. We are the lone developed country without universal care. Each attempt at doing the shameless copying has been beaten back by the pharmaceutical and insurance industries because they would prefer to profit from the system we have now rather than see people's health improve. There's nothing all that wrong with their positions, they are after all set up to make money. I would just prefer that we decide as a society that people's health is more important than corporate profits.

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It reminds me of a short story...
I would guess that the poorer you are, the less access to health care you have, the more likely you are to smoke and be obese. I'm not sure how that argues against universal care.
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-10-2006, 03:12 PM   #42
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

http://early-retirement.org/forums/i...p?topic=8507.0

Here is a link to a study that shows life expectancy and the amount spent on health care. There is no corallation between the two. That leaves other life issues (smoking, stress, good genes, etc.) on the table for an explanation as to a long life.
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-10-2006, 03:29 PM   #43
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

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Originally Posted by dylar
Each attempt at doing the shameless copying has been beaten back by the pharmaceutical and insurance industries because they would prefer to profit from the system we have now rather than see people's health improve. There's nothing all that wrong with their positions, they are after all set up to make money. I would just prefer that we decide as a society that people's health is more important than corporate profits.
Ah, I see, I neglected the conspiracy aspect...
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-10-2006, 03:45 PM   #44
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

Again, I fail to see how an argument that Americans are sicker (obese, stressed, smokers) than people in other countries is an argument that supports the health care system in this country.

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Ah, I see, I neglected the conspiracy aspect...
I don't think it's controversial to say that insurance and pharmaceutical companies oppose universal care. I think that their opposition to Clinton's plan back in '92 is pretty well documented. There's no tinfoil hat on my head. If you have information to the contrary, I'd love to hear it. Where do you think the additional $2500 a head we spend on health care goes?
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-10-2006, 04:00 PM   #45
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

"70% of all medical care costs are administered in the last year of a patients life."

Tell us which patients are going to die within one year and we can stop spending so much money on them.

If you want national health care, you will have to give up your right to sue.
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-10-2006, 04:03 PM   #46
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

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Originally Posted by dylar
Again, I fail to see how an argument that Americans are sicker (obese, stressed, smokers) than people in other countries is an argument that supports the health care system in this country.
The only thing that must be proved is that there is a better and cheaper system out there that can be successfully implemented here. *It doesn't make sense to spend billions of dollars to change the system to if it only marginally reduces costs or increases health. *The track record with the government is overspending. *So in the planing stages the program would have to show significant decreases in cost. *The only way to show these decreases is to cut service. *The argument is whether to change the system or not. *I do not have to prove that the system in place is better than anything. *You must prove the system to be implemented is better than the one we currently have. (You and I are illustrative only, not to be taken literally) *If you do not prove your system is better then we would be changing for the sake of changing, which results in wasting billions of dollars.

The link I posted clearly shows that there is no correlation between life expectancy and the amount spent on health care. *So we are left the with life choices and genes as the causes for our collectively early demise.
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-10-2006, 04:04 PM   #47
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark500
"70% of all medical care costs are administered in the last year of a patients life."
Therefore, I conclude, that there is an inverse relationship between health care spending and lifespan.

Spend less, live more (a healthcare novel by ESR Bob)
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-10-2006, 04:27 PM   #48
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

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The only thing that must be proved is that there is a better and cheaper system out there that can be successfully implemented here.
Based on the experience of every other developed country, it is possible to have a health care system which insures everyone at roughly half the cost of our system. This can be seen from the graph you linked to.

I agree that getting the government involved will introduce inefficiencies. I tend to think that politics works the same everywhere. I doubt the legislators in Denmark or the UK or France or whereever are any less prone to porkbarrelling and graft than we are here. Yet they still are able to have a system which insures everyone at roughly half the cost of ours.
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-10-2006, 04:32 PM   #49
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

Yup you can get it cheaper, but you have to wait for it.* I don't want to wait for my health care.* In my case waiting is not better.
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-10-2006, 04:36 PM   #50
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark500
Tell us which patients are going to die within one year and we can stop spending so much money on them.
Uh.. OK.

Maybe the 78 year old man with melanoma who just has a brain metastasis removed and is on a ventilator, and who has coronary disease with one heart attack already. Too weak to start chemo which might extend his live for a few months. The hospital was full that week, with no ventilator beds. I had to transfer a young woman with a pulmonary embolism to another hospital. Very distressing and expensive for her, too.

How about the stroke patient who is 85, hemiplegic and can't talk. Saw him a few weeks ago. He was admitted to have a colonoscopy for bleeding, but developed an arrhythmia during the procedure. His blood pressure dropped and he coded. They intubated him, but after the confusion settled down it became apparent that he has had years of emphysema and could barely breathe beforehand. Now we can't get him off the ventilator.

I've got more. I don't have the answers, but I believe the facts are accurate. Every life is important, but with non-infinite resources, society has to make choices. With or without government sponsored health care.

The point is that while no one has a crystal ball, it is a fact that end-of-life care is inordinately expensive and has diminishing returns in terms of meaningful quality and length of life.

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If you want national health care, you will have to give up your right to sue.
Huh? You can't sue the government?! This kind of irresponsible statement does little to strengthen otherwise sincere concerns about universal health care. I'd kick it up a notch if you intend to persuade people around here.

There are two sides, of course, but until you have experienced the chaos in the status quo, it's hard to imagine things getting worse. The nightmare has already arrived, kids.
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As if you didn't know..If the above message contains medical content, it's NOT intended as advice, and may not be accurate, applicable or sufficient. Don't rely on it for any purpose. Consult your own doctor for all medical advice.
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-10-2006, 04:41 PM   #51
 
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

Thanks Doc! - I figured I'd let a Pro handle it!
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-10-2006, 05:05 PM   #52
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

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In my case waiting is not better.
44 million more people having access to health care (at half the cost) vs. you and me waiting a little bit is a tradeoff I'm willing to make. I would love to see the evidence that the supposed waiting causes poor health outcomes. We could double the health spending of every other developed country in an effort to reduce waiting if we wanted to.
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-10-2006, 05:06 PM   #53
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

The Zipper extended family would not trade our system for yours in a heartbeat.

If you want to RE you are setting yourself up for catastrophic consequences unless you have a goldplated healthplan.
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-10-2006, 05:12 PM   #54
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

Quote:
Originally Posted by dylar
44 million more people having access to health care (at half the cost) vs. you and me waiting a little bit is a tradeoff I'm willing to make. I would love to see the evidence that the supposed waiting causes poor health outcomes. We could double the health spending of every other developed country in an effort to reduce waiting if we wanted to.
They do have access to essential health care. Just not the elective stuff.
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-10-2006, 05:16 PM   #55
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

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Originally Posted by lets-retire
They do have access to essential health care.* Just not the elective stuff.
This is not true.* You can get emergency care in a hospital until you are stabilized.* The hospital is not required to give you chemo if you have cancer.* It is not required to give you drugs you need to take on a daily basis to live.* You cannot make an appointment at a hospital to get a suspicious lump checked out.

You also will owe the hospital and doctors for any care you get and don't pay for.* So the 44 million without insurance will have to pay out of their own pocket for care.

As I have said before, this is a problem, not a solution.

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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-10-2006, 05:17 PM   #56
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

I have the solution...


If half the people who now have insurance want universal care. And if Universal care is half as much as traditional medical care.

Then those people who want universal coverage can move to that. The savings of those people who want it will then be enough to subsize everyone else without medical coverage.

Those who like their present traditional coverage can keep it and go on as before.

Everyone gets what they want.

- Sometimes I just can't get over how smart I am *
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-10-2006, 05:23 PM   #57
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

Like Martha says, I think it's more accurate to say that there's access to emergency care. Which everyone agrees is the most expensive, and worst way to deal with health problems.

MasterBlaster, that certainly wouldn't be worse than what we have now.
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-10-2006, 05:33 PM   #58
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

I view the numbers of uninsured and the number of people trapped in jobs for insurance as absolutely unacceptable.

The question for me is how to solve the problem. National healthcare. Regulated insurance. Subsidies to address the poor and uninsurable. Pick you poison or suggest your own.
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-10-2006, 06:28 PM   #59
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

Master, the way I see it, your traditional coverage can disappear pretty quickly.

The Insurance Co.'s have a gazillion ways they can terminate you.

Then what?
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-10-2006, 06:48 PM   #60
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

Yep - Guilty as charged - 89 yr old Mom last December - kept her alive on the government's nickel(and against her wishes) long enough for my sister to fly out and say goodbye. Then I ordered the plug pulled.

Not something I'm proud of. Rich is right - it's here now.

heh heh heh
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