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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-10-2006, 07:19 PM   #61
 
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zipper
Master, the way I see it, your traditional coverage can disappear pretty quickly.

The Insurance Co.'s have a gazillion ways they can terminate you.

Then what?
Yup, All these folks that think the system's great have never been sick!

They also 'made it on their own' - they seem to forget about Public Education, The Transportation System, The Police Force, The Fire Dept, etc. etc. etc. :

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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-10-2006, 07:47 PM   #62
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

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Originally Posted by dylar
I don't think it's controversial to say that insurance and pharmaceutical companies oppose universal care.
There's no tinfoil hat on my head.
If you have information to the contrary, I'd love to hear it.
All I tried to say, without invoking presidents or tinfoil hats, is that if 180+ other countries had a better system then it would be copied.

That goes for the insurance & pharma companies as well. Some of them are learning that prevention is more profitable than cure or that evidence-based medicine works better than the "because we can" philosophy, and they're concepts worth pursuing. While some companies may choose to work with or oppose governements to maintain the status quo, a company that figures out how to make money out of a better system will do an end run around all the political maneuvering.

I think you're reading more into my comments than was intended or appropriate.
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-10-2006, 08:42 PM   #63
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

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Originally Posted by dylar
Again, I fail to see how an argument that Americans are sicker (obese, stressed, smokers) than people in other countries is an argument that supports the health care system in this country.
Americans may be fatter than most (not all) other countries, but our ill health canít be blamed on smoking. We are not heavier smokers. We have one of the lowest smoking rates in the world.

http://www.quit.org.au/article.asp?ContentID=7231


And I don't see why we should be any more stressed than anyone else. After all we are the world's richest nation. Oh wait- maybe we are stressed because we are worried about our health care?

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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-10-2006, 08:56 PM   #64
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

I read something about the connection between smoking and obesity. People who smoke tend to eat less. It makes sense. Instead of lighting up, they probably reach into the fridge for a snack now. From this perspective, the war on tobacco may not have much of a dent in health care costs, if we trade one kind of at-risk person for another.
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-10-2006, 09:47 PM   #65
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

With due respect to Rich, he is one doctor, who happens to be on this board, and is in favor of universal government health care.* I know many who are strongly opposed.* Let's quit deferring to Rich as the resident expert* on this political issue, simply because of his medical training ... I'm sure he will admit there are differences of opinion in his profession.

Ironic that we met with an agent in today who explained that more companies are moving to HRA's / HSA's, with success.* Surprise, market forces are being brought to bear in the health care profession, and it is beginning to work.* We spend over $1M/year on group health premiums, and we will likely go this route, and do so in a way that reduces premiums for our employees, and will likely put dollars into their 401k's to boot.

To the comment above that large companies tend to favor universal government health care, this is true ... for the same reason some retirees prefer it.* This solution foists the problem on to someone else's shoulders.* Small and medium-sized businesses tend to oppose such a solution, because they have often been wiser in their judicious offerings of benefits.

Regarding suing the government, I too seem to remember this was a feature of Hillary-care ... exempting the fed's from suit, and forcing us all into the same tidy program.
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-10-2006, 09:53 PM   #66
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

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Originally Posted by unclemick2
Yep - Guilty as charged - 89 yr old Mom last December - kept her alive on the government's nickel(and against her wishes) long enough for my sister to fly out and say goodbye. Then I ordered the plug pulled.

Not something I'm proud of. Rich is right - it's here now.
Mick,

I personally see nothing at all wrong about what you did. It was compassionate for your sister and, therefor, for Mom, too.

The more troubling situations are where it drags on for weeks or months after all goodbyes are long done. To me, at least, saying farewell is a damn good use of taxpayers' or anyone else's money. You done good.
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-10-2006, 10:07 PM   #67
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
With due respect to Rich, he is one doctor, who happens to be on this board, and is in favor of universal government health care. I know many who are strongly opposed. Let's quit deferring to Rich as the resident expert on this political issue, simply because of his medical training ... I'm sure he will admit there are differences of opinion in his profession.
Of course you are right, Charles. I speak only for myself and there is much disagreement among my colleagues. i hope i haven't given anyone the impression that I am representing my profession at large. Just one small voice.

But perhaps less than you might imagine. It is interesting to see how many of the old school AMA-types who 15 years ago would have resigned before accepting any form of national health or universal health coverage have changed their minds in frustration. In fact, even the American College of Physicians has endorsed some form of the above.

We are a pretty inventive country, compassionate at heart, and I really do think we'll come up with some partial solution. Just trying to stoke the coals, because until we do it is very hurtful to watch what happens every day.
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-10-2006, 10:37 PM   #68
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

Agreed we need changes, and we can debate the best course.
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-11-2006, 02:26 AM   #69
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

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Then those people who want universal coverage can move to that. The savings of those people who want it will then be enough to subsize everyone else without medical coverage.

Those who like their present traditional coverage can keep it and go on as before.

Everyone gets what they want.
You're right! Interestingly, you are describing EXACTLY the system that is in place in most of Europe. There is a public system, where you can get adequate-to-good care, but with sometimes longer waits for non-emergency things. If you choose to, you can get private insurance that will let you see private docs and go to private clinics, or pay out-of-pocket (but you are not necessarily guranteed better care.. it's pretty much a crap shoot either way). But I guess you are saying that everyone shouldn't chip in to the public system. I might agree with you if US gov't. (i.e., non-private) healthcare spending per capita didn't ALREADY EQUAL what the public systems in Europe and Japan are paying to cover EVERYONE.

A stupid incident, but a friend of ours fell off a ladder and needed several stitches in her head.. so she just goes to the local hospital and they fix her up.. period. That kind of basic, non-adversarial, humane care should be allocated to everyone in the US; there's just no excuse not to.

Nords, you keep cracking me up by repeating, "I think that if any of the 180+ other countries in the world were doing it both cheaper AND better, not necessarily just one or the other, that their method would have been shamelessly copied by now." and "if 180+ other countries had a better system then it would be copied."*

It HAS been copied.. one hundred and seventy-nine times.. WE are the odd ones out!! Does the US really have nothing to learn from anyone else?

To answer your question seriously, it's because the very big, very profitable, very influential (Frist!) healthcare and insurance INDUSTRY has way more traction in the US than anywhere else. The different mentality re. health care abroad just hasn't allowed this profit machine to overwhelm their systems.
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-11-2006, 02:45 AM   #70
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

I agree with Ladelfina that nationalized health care generally just plain works. The US seems to be the only developed country where this is considered debatable. Try it, you'll like it.
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-11-2006, 08:01 AM   #71
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

Rich in Tampa, those real life examples are trumping our theory. But doesn't it make sense, if I run an insurance company and you get an expensive, protracted illness, I'm going to find a way to dump you. You are hurting my bottom line.

And Martha had an excellent point. I have seen 70-year olds working at Mega-Corp because their wife had a serious illness. Trapped by insurance in a loathsome job.
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-11-2006, 08:41 AM   #72
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

Martha-- you're correct I should have typed emergency rather than essential.

Has anyone stopped to think that maybe we are the richest/most powerful country in the would because we don't let the lazy suck off those who work their butts off. Americans are generally lazy people. That is why we have developed some of the most innovative labor saving devices (which many bosses figured out their employees can now do more work instead of less because of those devices). Look at the rest of the world they were founded on dictatorships then morphed into a more democratic form government. They still have the momma government will provide mentality and they are no where near us in their wealth or power. Heck the French are seeing an exodus of their most wealthy citizens because they are tired of paying for all of the social programs. You don't believe me, look at the black population. This group of people have 'benefited" the most, as a percentage of their population, form welfare. What has it gotten them, an increase in number unwed mothers when, more poverty, and less opportunity when compared to statistics of before welfare.

I was listening to the news the other day. It was saying many business owners in the Gulf coast region were having a hard time filling their payrolls until recently. They also pointed out that it just happened to coincide with the expiration of unemployment benefits for many Katrina victims. It might be news bias , but I found that rather interesting.
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-11-2006, 08:53 AM   #73
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

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Originally Posted by lets-retire

Has anyone stopped to think that maybe we are the richest/most powerful country in the would because we don't let the lazy suck off those who work their butts off.*
Yes -- this is hardly an original thought. I doubt that many people would disagree that the bare knuckles approach leads to wealth and power. Rather, the disagreement would be about whether it leads to a good life. It may be that people outside the USA understand these issues very well, and choose to follow a different path.
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-11-2006, 08:58 AM   #74
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

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maybe we are the richest/most powerful country in the would because we don't let the lazy suck off those who work their butts off.
Why do you hate non-working spouses, early retirees, and overpaid executives
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-11-2006, 09:11 AM   #75
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

Why do you hate non-working spouses, early retirees, and overpaid executives

How come I never hear ttalk about the Moral Hazzard of being rich and making 7 or 8 figure salaries? But if working people or those unable to work being have mere suffciency, that is a moral hazzard that would somehow make them not want to work?

If you want everybody to be obscenely productive make everybody worth at least a hundred million THEN they can choose to do, not what they have to do to eat, but all those 7 and 8 figure jobs.

Anybody who owns the income stream generated by the working class or copyright or patent protection is not working but benefitting from a Big Government walth redistribution program. Why isnt that a moral hazzard.? And they can afford medical care too. They dont have to work. They are already rich curtesy of other people and Gov programs but they still "go to work" and make millions. And thats not moral hazzard? Why don't they just drop out and open some 7 and 8 figure jobs for somebody who can use the money?

The object shouldnt be make more people do more work for less money and that'll fix their wagon. That's the Old Soviet style communist thinking. Seems to be what The Rich are up to for everybody but themselves.

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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-11-2006, 09:22 AM   #76
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

once in a while my wife looks at the best doctors in their fields, and most of them don't accept medicare or medicaid

if we go to a socialized system then the good doctors will just not participate and we will have a bad system for the peons and a good system for the rich who are advocating socialized medicine. i prefer the current system where my wife went to a surgeon who is one of the top people in his field and a full professor at one of the best medical schools in the US and got excellent care.

I have a primary physician I go to just for annual blood tests who i think very lowly about. I never take his referrals and always found my own specialists when needed who are a lot better. the few people that did follow his advice almost died in the hospitals he said they should go and they are some of the worst hospitals in NYC. And they had problems because the hospitals are bad hospitals, not due to their conditions.
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-11-2006, 09:28 AM   #77
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
With due respect to Rich, he is one doctor, who happens to be on this board, and is in favor of universal government health care.* I know many who are strongly opposed.* Let's quit deferring to Rich as the resident expert* on this political issue, simply because of his medical training ... I'm sure he will admit there are differences of opinion in his profession.
*

I like Rich's point of view on what is happening in the trenches. *We hear a lot about how we have the best care in the world andwhy endanger it by moving to a national healthcare system.* Rich questions that assumption.

Quote:
Ironic that we met with an agent in today who explained that more companies are moving to HRA's / HSA's, with success.* Surprise, market forces are being brought to bear in the health care profession, and it is beginning to work.* We spend over $1M/year on group health premiums, and we will likely go this route, and do so in a way that reduces premiums for our employees, and will likely put dollars into their 401k's to boot.
I think HSAs are a great idea for the young and healthy. *The problem is that it works great if you get in while you are healthy and can accummulate money in an account. *If you already have a chronic illness or a serious illness, you end up using all your money in the HSA each year for medical care. *What I have seen over the past few years are more and more options and choices proposed that will make it easier for young and healthy people to get insurance and to save money. *These same options can make it more and more difficult for older and sicker people to get health care. *.

Quote:
To the comment above that large companies tend to favor universal government health care, this is true ... for the same reason some retirees prefer it.* This solution foists the problem on to someone else's shoulders.* Small and medium-sized businesses tend to oppose such a solution, because they have often been wiser in their judicious offerings of benefits.
I propose sharing the problem with everyone, not foisting the problem on someone else, which is what we do now. *I have managed a small business of approximately 75 employees. *We would love national healthcare. *My small business clients would love it as well. *They have a hard time buying insurance for small groups and pay more than large businesses, sometimes significantly more, for the same coverage. *Some very small groups can't buy it at all. *It would also make it easier to hire more full time employees because you wouldn't have to worry so much about beneft costs.

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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-11-2006, 09:47 AM   #78
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

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Originally Posted by ladelfina
Nords, you keep cracking me up by repeating, "I think that if any of the 180+ other countries in the world were doing it both cheaper AND better, not necessarily just one or the other, that their method would have been shamelessly copied by now." and "if 180+ other countries had a better system then it would be copied."*
It HAS been copied.. one hundred and seventy-nine times.. WE are the odd ones out!! Does the US really have nothing to learn from anyone else?
To answer your question seriously, it's because the very big, very profitable, very influential (Frist!) healthcare and insurance INDUSTRY has way more traction in the US than anywhere else. The different mentality re. health care abroad just hasn't allowed this profit machine to overwhelm their systems.
I don't know enough about foreign healthcare to be able to point to a difference, but I'm pretty familiar with human reactions to an opportunity to make money in a capitalist society.* That's why I don't buy into the insurance/pharma oligarchy theories.* Someone always finds a way to weasel around the big company's death-grips on the system, and when they start making money then everyone wants to do it.

So what differences are there?* Access?* Waiting lists?* "Defensive medicine" with extra tests ordered just to be sure?* Litigious patients?* Soylent green end-of-life care?

As for socialized medicine, I have a hard time agreeing that it's a good idea to turn over our healthcare to the government.* That's how the military got its healthcare system, and right now it's so cheap that it ain't necessarily attracting the best & brightest.
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-11-2006, 09:48 AM   #79
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

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once in a while my wife looks at the best doctors in their fields, and most of them don't accept medicare or medicaid
Class warfare. My folks had more money than your folks. Kiss my ass or you can die. Professional and Business ethics ya know. Hardly the basis for any system worth allowing to exist.

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if we go to a socialized system then the good doctors will just not participate
An administrative matter.

Quote:
will have a bad system for the peons and a good system for the rich who are advocating socialized medicine.
Once again., class warfare and btw ... I don't know any cabal of Rich people advocating for socialized medicine. Certainly not Republicans and they are mostly The Rich


Quote:
i prefer the current system where my wife went to a surgeon who is one of the top people in his field and a full professor at one of the best medical schools in the US and got excellent care.
YAAAAAAWn... yeah until somebody gets really sick and it starts to get expensive. Or Gawd forbid you actually could go broke.. they you will start with the "There oughtta be a law!" *Black people have their programs... poor people live like kings off the Government ... *We're the richest nation in the world ... we can put a man on the moon but we can't.....why should I have to pay for this!..... *I'm usually Conservative on most issues but we really need to do something about medical care


About most MD's being ...well, I ;'ll say casual in tehe xtreme abotu their knowlge of medicine and give-a-sht factor.. yes I know that. Just shut the F up and take this drug! *But I also, belive it or not, *have a LOT of frikkin' difficulty actually PAYING for things with MONEY

I mean I need *a test or diagnostic done and they're concerned ONLY with INSURANCE INSURANCE INSURANCE. *And they willl gladly lie/wag/tweak the paperwork to get it on the insurance before they give me a price! And the times I have done this "al fresco" it was like pulling teeth to get the price THEN nobody wanted to give it to me in writting BEFORE the procedure. They'd schedule it chop chop the hustle me thru THEN I get a bill. If I waited for the bill they'd hold up the test

And as far as seeking your own specialist... tell me how you do that. Specialists do *not see "Walk in" traffic . You have to be refrred by another doctor. The principle is "YOU can't know you need a cardiologist (or whatever) *(I am not in an HMO or other network. I pay extra to keep my hands free)

There is something much more insidious going on behind the Green Door besides simply a mere insurance plan model or care access *issue.


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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........
Old 08-11-2006, 09:57 AM   #80
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Re: Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare..........

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* think HSAs are a great idea for the young and healthy.* The problem is that it works great if you get in while you are healthy and can accummulate money in an account.

It's a red herring that does not address affordability or access. It just gets the well-off* off the hook for more taxes and has everybody else subsidize their tax bonanza.* They don't help people who simply dont have the money period, and they don't help people who dont make out taxes wise. And if you make enough money to make-out tax wise you don' need the tax break.* Welfare for the well off and healthy (so far)


Quote:
Small and medium-sized businesses tend to oppose such a solution, because they have often been wiser in their judicious offerings of benefits.
I love this strange-bedfellows or cognitive dissonence or whatever it is. Most of the time the same people who poo-poo any talk of universal access/affordability such as Limbaugh and other "free marketeers" also simutaneously rail and rant* to the effect Why should employers be in the health insurance business?! Why should your employer provide you with medical insurance?!* Here, however, we are bragging about how skillful they are at it, how much they enjoy it,* and* THAT is the reason we should keep on doing it.
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