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Old 07-13-2015, 03:55 PM   #21
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Actually, my understanding is that there IS something that can keep them from raising rates - namely gummint insurance regulating bodies. For the most part, rate increases on many types of insurance have to get past these regulators. At least SOME evidence of a need to raise rates is typically required. Now, I can't say with assurance that the process is more than a rubber stamp job, but I'd like to think we get SOMETHING for the tax dollars we pay the regulators. .....

I suggest that the one thing insurance companies do well is actualizing such risks. A good insurance company (or more likely, the actuary they pay) should know within a few "basis points" the number of folks who will eventually need to use their LTC policy - ................
I should have been clearer in my post, that any rate increase usually require regulatory approval, but I thought that would be common knowledge. The reality is that most companies won't apply for a premium increase unless there is a reasonable basis for doing so and most are approved in whole or in part. In this case, things must be pretty bad if NYID, one of the most conservative departments in the country, approved a 60% premium increase.

My understanding is that the actuaries have missed the mark big time on utilization and it is not as near as predictable as you suggest (unlike life insurance mortality, which is quite predictable for large groups), and that is why many of the bigger, more established players have exited the LTC business.
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Old 07-13-2015, 04:07 PM   #22
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I have a LTC policy with NW Mutual. Its small, $55 per day with inflation increases. Costs me abt $95/ mo. My wife wanted it. I wasnt keen on it. It has a 25 week waiting period! Seems like a lot. What do you all think? While she is comforted by hers( same amount), Males on my side have been independant til then end, then they die at home historically.


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Old 07-13-2015, 04:24 PM   #23
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I should have been clearer in my post, that any rate increase usually require regulatory approval, but I thought that would be common knowledge. The reality is that most companies won't apply for a premium increase unless there is a reasonable basis for doing so and most are approved in whole or in part. In this case, things must be pretty bad if NYID, one of the most conservative departments in the country, approved a 60% premium increase.

+1. I would also guess that unless things go completely pear-shaped that is all the NYSID will allow by way of premium increases for at least 3 or 4 years.
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Old 07-13-2015, 07:36 PM   #24
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Rodi, I don't disagree. Both my parents were in Assisted Living Centers. Dad was showing signs of dementia and thankfully passed in his sleep before the move to memory care took place.
My mother's health declined severely her last year in Assisted Living and we were just arranging for additional care when she ended up in the hospital and passed away within the week as she did not want life support.
So, I've seen severe decline up close and personal and have had to make the decisions.
Dementia and Alzheimer's is very scary. I'm hopeful that our laws will progress to allow for end of life options rather than wasting away in a nursing home.


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Old 07-13-2015, 08:03 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by pb4uski View Post
My understanding is that the actuaries have missed the mark big time on utilization and it is not as near as predictable as you suggest (unlike life insurance mortality, which is quite predictable for large groups), and that is why many of the bigger, more established players have exited the LTC business.
You may be correct but the way I read this Long-Term-Care Rate Hikes Loom-Kiplinger the REASON they missed the claims utilization is that folks haven't dropped their policies in the expected numbers. No point in debating the issue as it "is what it is" when it comes to rate hikes. A real bummer, but LTC may still be something that some of us are willing to buy. YMMV
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Old 07-13-2015, 09:01 PM   #26
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You may be correct but the way I read this Long-Term-Care Rate Hikes Loom-Kiplinger the REASON they missed the claims utilization is that folks haven't dropped their policies in the expected numbers. No point in debating the issue as it "is what it is" when it comes to rate hikes. A real bummer, but LTC may still be something that some of us are willing to buy. YMMV
Actually, you are both right plus there is a third reason for the trainwreck: interest rates. Most carriers didn't or couldn't hedge a low interest rate scenario.
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Old 07-13-2015, 09:08 PM   #27
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You may be correct but the way I read this Long-Term-Care Rate Hikes Loom-Kiplinger the REASON they missed the claims utilization is that folks haven't dropped their policies in the expected numbers. No point in debating the issue as it "is what it is" when it comes to rate hikes. A real bummer, but LTC may still be something that some of us are willing to buy. YMMV
If you had mentioned lower than expected lapses in your prior post I would have agreed with that part. The link you provided cites both higher than expected utilization and lower than expected lapses, and then we have interest rates which is critical to any long-term insurance contract.

While I'm not keen on the product, if I was buying one I think I would lean towards NML.
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Old 07-13-2015, 10:49 PM   #28
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We have had long term care coverage since it was offered to my previous MegaCorp about 25 years ago in our early 30's. It was a portable policy. We had no kids at the time and I thought it would be good for us just to buy that coverage. The bill was $1080 per year for 2 of us. We'll, over the years, we've been hit with one 70% increase a few years back + several inflation coverage increases. We pay $227 a month for both of us. ($2724/year for both, half of that for each) Coverage is $255 max daily nursing home benefit for each of us. Unlimited lifetime max coverage. The coverage comes to $7756 for each of us per month max. I don't know how much we've paid over the years for this coverage. Probably ~ $35K or more. I wouldn't dream of canceling it today. I expect that before we reach the age of 70, we'll be hit with one or two more 50% increases. We're both 57 today. Hope this helps. John Hancock Policy.
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Old 07-14-2015, 06:53 AM   #29
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This is exactly why I will not buy the product. They encourage you to "lock it in" while you are young and rates are affordable, and then when you get older and more likely to need it, they jack up the rates so you can't afford it any more.
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Old 07-14-2015, 07:18 AM   #30
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time will tell if all the latest policy's issued were under priced too and if they will pan out that way but it certainly would be a great way to market them . you may be right .


the flip side is though as insurers they can't afford to scare away all those older premium paying customers most of whom have little in claims. as well as if these increases are the norm they won't get younger buyers either.

so while your theory sounds good I doubt in the insurance business which counts on large pools of clients that it would play out that way by design.

more likely a case of early policy's were way underpriced ..
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Old 07-14-2015, 07:27 AM   #31
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I have a LTC policy with NW Mutual. Its small, $55 per day with inflation increases. Costs me abt $95/ mo. My wife wanted it. I wasnt keen on it. It has a 25 week waiting period! Seems like a lot. What do you all think? While she is comforted by hers( same amount), Males on my side have been independant til then end, then they die at home historically.


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Not a great policy... $55 per day probably will not even pay for the meals...
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Old 07-15-2015, 04:29 AM   #32
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we need 350-400 a day as of now in our area - nyc.

it is likely if we live in to our 80's the premiums we paid in would really run about 1 years coverage .
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Old 08-09-2015, 06:10 AM   #33
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Are there any "catastrophic" LTC care policies out there that kick in only after the insured pays for the first 3 years, for example ?

Believe I read that about 1/2 of population requires some nursing home care and that 95% (might even be higher) of all nursing home stays are less than 3 years.

Wondering if there are policies, reasonably priced, where we would pay for first 3 years care and insurance company would take over for years 4 onward.

This would allow me to self insure for 98% of outcomes and have insurance cover extreme events and preserve assets for my spouse.
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Old 08-09-2015, 07:04 AM   #34
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I have a LTC policy with NW Mutual. Its small, $55 per day with inflation increases. Costs me abt $95/ mo. My wife wanted it. I wasnt keen on it. It has a 25 week waiting period! Seems like a lot.
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Are there any "catastrophic" LTC care policies out there that kick in only after the insured pays for the first 3 years, for example ?

This would allow me to self insure for 98% of outcomes and have insurance cover extreme events and preserve assets for my spouse.
DDave... looks like Al in Ohio may have your plan. 25 month waiting period (4 years---note looking online waiting and elimination period seem to be the same) Al did not note if his policy is unlimited coverage or not.

It does get less expensive with increasing elimination period. I'm not sure if it gets cheap enough. Why don't you hit up some LTC providers and see what they have to offer? I'd be interested in the result.

I expect the best for me would be the unlimited protected assets from a partnership plan. But these only seem to be available in IL and NY... Not sure how that works in another state. Even with reciprocity, I'm not sure the unlimited would port to a state that does not offer unlimited protection. I think the reciprocity states only have to honor up to the level of excluded assets to what they allow in partnership LTCI in their state.
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Old 08-09-2015, 08:45 AM   #35
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I should have been clearer in my post, that any rate increase usually require regulatory approval, but I thought that would be common knowledge. The reality is that most companies won't apply for a premium increase unless there is a reasonable basis for doing so and most are approved in whole or in part. In this case, things must be pretty bad if NYID, one of the most conservative departments in the country, approved a 60% premium increase.

My understanding is that the actuaries have missed the mark big time on utilization and it is not as near as predictable as you suggest (unlike life insurance mortality, which is quite predictable for large groups), and that is why many of the bigger, more established players have exited the LTC business.
I agree with this and I'm an actuary. I ESPECIALLY agree about the NY State Insurance Department! Insurance companies in any state need to supply reams of statistics and justification for any rate change for any product (with the possible exception of individually-negotiated rates on large commercial property and casualty coverages). The Insurance Department typically counters back with every reason the rate change you asked for is excessive (and no mention of areas where you might have made overly optimistic assumptions) and it takes a lot of negotiation to get a rate increase approved. Typically a company gets less than it asked for.

I was with a GE insurance sub when it was acquired by a very large insurer. One particularly good segment of the business was sold to Berkshire Hathaway, but the rest went to the acquiring company- except Genworth. They didn't want that.

DH and I are self-insuring. I think it's a good bet; he's 77 and has enough health issues that if he were to go into a nursing home he probably wouldn't last more than a few years. I could fund that and still be OK for my own retirement.
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Old 08-09-2015, 12:26 PM   #36
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When LTCi surfaced 30+ years ago I was in the insurance business and, over the years, I attended dozens of seminars that were hosted by various insurance companies. All seminars offered continental breakfast. Some even sprang for lunch. I remember comments that this was a great product to SELL. I don't recall ever hearing about how wonderful it was for the client.

I've opted to self-fund that aspect of risk and will always think that I have made a smart choice. The other choice still makes insurance agents happy.
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Old 08-09-2015, 01:28 PM   #37
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DDave... looks like Al in Ohio may have your plan. 25 month waiting period (4 years---note looking online waiting and elimination period seem to be the same) Al did not note if his policy is unlimited coverage or not.

It does get less expensive with increasing elimination period. I'm not sure if it gets cheap enough. Why don't you hit up some LTC providers and see what they have to offer? I'd be interested in the result.

I expect the best for me would be the unlimited protected assets from a partnership plan. But these only seem to be available in IL and NY... Not sure how that works in another state. Even with reciprocity, I'm not sure the unlimited would port to a state that does not offer unlimited protection. I think the reciprocity states only have to honor up to the level of excluded assets to what they allow in partnership LTCI in their state.
25 weeks. ~6 months.

You misread the original.

A catastrophic LTC Insurance policy with multi year waiting period is a missing product.
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Old 08-09-2015, 01:30 PM   #38
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DDave... looks like Al in Ohio may have your plan. 25 month waiting period (4 years---note looking online waiting and elimination period seem to be the same) Al did not note if his policy is unlimited coverage or not.

It does get less expensive with increasing elimination period. I'm not sure if it gets cheap enough. Why don't you hit up some LTC providers and see what they have to offer? I'd be interested in the result.

I expect the best for me would be the unlimited protected assets from a partnership plan. But these only seem to be available in IL and NY... Not sure how that works in another state. Even with reciprocity, I'm not sure the unlimited would port to a state that does not offer unlimited protection. I think the reciprocity states only have to honor up to the level of excluded assets to what they allow in partnership LTCI in their state.
yep , i couldn't care less about the 3 years coverage in my nys partnership plan. the beneits after the insurance runs out are priceless .
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Old 08-09-2015, 01:30 PM   #39
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We have an insurance salesman in our church who's let me know that he's ALWAYS available if I want to buy LTC insurance because I'm likely to be a long way away from going "on claim". (I'm 62, completed 3 35-mile charity bike rides this summer and have 2 more planned, and my most urgent medical problem is a raging case of poison ivy for which I plan to seek attention at a Doc-in-the-Box today.) DH- well, not so much.


Another piece of research in the decision should be the criteria the company uses to decide that you have a valid claim. Kramer, on "Mad Money", excoriated the unnamed company that collected premiums from his father for years, then said he wasn't incapacitated enough to collect when he had a stroke and had to go to a nursing home. Kramer fought them to the mat and won, but said he netted little after legal fees.
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Old 08-09-2015, 02:02 PM   #40
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...

A catastrophic LTC Insurance policy with multi year waiting period is a missing product.
Yes, at least here in Oregon. I've checked with multiple insurance companies and agents, looking for a LTC policy with a three year waiting period and 100% coverage afterwards and none are to be found.

The excuse I get for the lack of such a policy is that being that the average nursing home stay is less than three years then heirs could sue the insurance company for taking advantage of the buyer and selling an unsuitable product. The response sounds fishy to me but that's what I usually get.
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