Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 08-12-2015, 09:25 AM   #101
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,275
I have not worried about LTC.... but Nunthewiser's post brought up something that I think is important...

One of my sisters was laid up in nursing home with an illness... she did get better, but there were 'test' along the way to determine if the insurance would pay for the facility and rehab...

One of the test was dressing... so, my sister was telling me that if they put her panties on the floor and she was able to step into the leg holes but not do anything else such as pull them up, that was considered that she could help get dressed.... but as my other sister pointed out, you are still standing there naked....

The rules and fine print can trip you up....
__________________

__________________
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 08-12-2015, 09:25 AM   #102
Moderator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rocky Inlets
Posts: 24,459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ready View Post
I've read through those terms in the contracts, but I've always wondered just how difficult it is to prove you are deficient in these areas. How can the insurance company challenge you if you say you can't eat by yourself or get yourself dressed? Who is going to validate these claims? Is a doctor going to ask you to undress and dress up while they watch? Is stating you are deficient good enough, or do the insurance companies make it difficult to prove?

And if a doctor's note is required, how hard would it be to find a doctor who would acknowledge that a 95 year old can't dress or feed themselves?
You may find this thread helpful. Nords shared his experience with his father's LTC policy.
__________________

__________________
MichaelB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2015, 09:32 AM   #103
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ready View Post
I've read through those terms in the contracts, but I've always wondered just how difficult it is to prove you are deficient in these areas. How can the insurance company challenge you if you say you can't eat by yourself or get yourself dressed? Who is going to validate these claims? Is a doctor going to ask you to undress and dress up while they watch? Is stating you are deficient good enough, or do the insurance companies make it difficult to prove?



And if a doctor's note is required, how hard would it be to find a doctor who would acknowledge that a 95 year old can't dress or feed themselves?

My understanding is that the insurance company has the right to examine you at their expense and have access to your medical records. Initially, her doctor would validate the claim. Hopefully her doctor would've seen the deterioration over time and realize she isn't able to perform the tasks consistently.


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum
__________________
akck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2015, 12:43 PM   #104
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 204
Quote:
I've read through those terms in the contracts, but I've always wondered just how difficult it is to prove you are deficient in these areas. How can the insurance company challenge you if you say you can't eat by yourself or get yourself dressed? Who is going to validate these claims? Is a doctor going to ask you to undress and dress up while they watch? Is stating you are deficient good enough, or do the insurance companies make it difficult to prove?
In the case of Mom's Genworth policy, a doctor's recommendation is what starts the claim process. Genworth then gets the right to examine the records of the nursing home/ALF. They (Genworth) then provide a nurse to examine/interview the claimant with regard to observations of physical limitations on everyday life as stipulated in the contract. In our case the exam/interview took about an hour. We witnessed it. The nurse was very young and seemed sympathetic, but YMMV, as always.

So, thats the drill.


edit: I flipped through the ordeal poster Nords went through a few years back and chuckled:

Quote:
You may find this thread helpful. Nords shared his experience with his father's LTC policy.
I had nowhere near the "pleasure" that he had collecting on his Dad's claim, but at least, in the end, his LTC was quite lucrative.

Even 4 years later Genworth is still not accepting emails and pdfs. Everything is done with snail mail and faxes just to add to the effect. Amazing.
__________________
.................................
A life without beer is not worth living
Nunthewiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2015, 06:04 PM   #105
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Mulligan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 7,379
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski View Post
I inquired about such a catastrophic policy (similar to a regular policy but with a long exclusion period) from a broker and never got a good response. I would think it would be affordable because the risk of claims is low.

I wonder that maybe there is a specific monetary reason companies would not provide this type of plan intentionally. Such as healthier people not taking the traditional plan thus exposing the companies to the "healthy ones" (strong body, demented mind) who live 10-15 years in a nursing home? They would be expected to provide lower premiums for the 3 year deferral, but still be "on the hook" for the long term inhabitants of a home?
If they mitigated the unlimited expense by capping, would many people be interested in a plan that didn't pay for three years, but then paid only for the next 3?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________
Mulligan is offline   Reply With Quote
Long Term Care Insurance 60% premium hike--yikes!
Old 08-13-2015, 12:18 AM   #106
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 704
Long Term Care Insurance 60% premium hike--yikes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nunthewiser View Post
I had nowhere near the "pleasure" that he had collecting on his Dad's claim, but at least, in the end, his LTC was quite lucrative.

Even 4 years later Genworth is still not accepting emails and pdfs. Everything is done with snail mail and faxes just to add to the effect. Amazing.

That may be changing. I received an email from my optometrist that they were installing a HIPPA approved email system so all communications and documents can be emailed to/from them. I assume other medical facilities will adopt an approved system. If they don't, at least they can't use HIPPA as the excuse.


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum
__________________
akck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2015, 09:14 AM   #107
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,820
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulligan View Post
I wonder that maybe there is a specific monetary reason companies would not provide this type of plan intentionally.
Uncertainty.
Insurers figure they have a better shot at estimating future costs during the first 3 years than they have at estimating future costs during the remaining years.
__________________
Independent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2015, 12:42 PM   #108
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Ready's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Independent View Post
Uncertainty.
Insurers figure they have a better shot at estimating future costs during the first 3 years than they have at estimating future costs during the remaining years.

Agreed. Plus I wonder how much of a market there is for insuring stays beyond 3 years. It's got to be a very small number, and it would only be attractive to people who can fully self insure for the first three years. And chances are, if they can insure for three years, they probably could go further if necessary and wouldn't be interested in the insurance anyway.
__________________
Ready is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2015, 02:55 PM   #109
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Vermont & Sarasota, FL
Posts: 16,433
I guess that I'm an outlier then. We could self insure a few years, but if it was 5 or more years then it would be a big dent and I would be interested in insuring against a big dent.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.
pb4uski is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2015, 04:14 PM   #110
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,413
typically at 5 years most folks with assets have shifted them and going forward is not on their dime.

if the states really didn't want that they could just increase or do away with the look back and just disqualify any transfers .

depending on state partnership plans why would someone who's state requires you p/u only the first 3 years want to even consider paying for 5 or more ?

i doubt there would be much of a market for those plans .
__________________
mathjak107 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2015, 06:17 AM   #111
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Humble
Posts: 188
DW and I have LTC policies from MetLife, just before they exited the market. Premium combined for both of us is $1500 per year. This for $120 per day for a maximum of 4 years with inflation protection. Yes - $120 per day is chump change, but it will help.

Some of us will spend a long time in expensive care. Most won't. It's the people in the middle - net worth-wise who benefit most from the coverage. Those with mucho assets can self insure. Those without much - like my mom - will exhaust their assets and go on Medicaid.
__________________
Turn_the_Page is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2015, 12:02 PM   #112
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,617
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB View Post
You may find this thread helpful. Nords shared his experience with his father's LTC policy.
Boy, was that a stroll down memory lane. I'll write an update over there to cap it off.

My father's been in that care facility for 4.5 years now and will turn 82 years old in a few months. He's still alert and mobile, but he's slowing down. Every week his energy levels and his cognition decline by a fraction of a percentage. He's still deep into mid-stage Alzheimer's and he spends most of his time doing jigsaw puzzles. Well, technically that's jigsaw puzzle-- every morning the same puzzle is brand-new for the first time all over again.

My experiences with John Hancock have hardened my opinion about long-term care insurance:
Why I Won't Buy Long-Term Care Insurance - Military Guide

Quote:
Originally Posted by wesnyc View Post
Good question--I'm not sure. Interestingly my financial advisor told me that the policy I currently have would now cost me between $12,000 and $14,000 a year were I just signing on--which obviously makes $5,000 seem like a real bargain--frankly even $8,000. My concern is though that with new policies priced at these exorbitant rates, what is the future of LTC insurance? I don't see many new signees coming on board at those rates--not that everyone will sign up for maximum benefits. But it gives one pause--with insurers dropping out of the LTC market, I really wonder if it's going to survive.
I think you made the right choice to abandon the policy.

Genworth is probably heaving a huge sigh of relief, too.
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2015, 12:10 PM   #113
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,615
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
depending on state partnership plans why would someone who's state requires you p/u only the first 3 years want to even consider paying for 5 or more ?
One possible reason--to be in a better facility, after 3 years, than can be bought at the Medicaid rate.
Another reason: The Partnership Plans only allow you to exclude the value of the insurance from your remaining assets in order to qualify for Medicaid. You still have to be basically broke (excluding the things that don't count in the Medicaid formula). So, if you've got assets that exceed your policy value that you'd like to pass on, it would be handy to have 5 years (at least) to accomplish the transfer outside of the Medicaid lookback window.

Just a note: From the LTCi policies I looked at, the duration specified for the payout really doesn't mean much--you could have a "3 year" policy that is still paying after 10 years, provided you haven't used up the total value of the policy ($ per day x number of days). But you can't "accelerate" the daily/weekly payouts. So, it's more flexible (but more costly) to buy a 3 year, $250/day policy than a 5 year, $150/day policy, even though they have the same total payout "pot".
__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2015, 04:13 PM   #114
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,413
Our state offers either dollar for a dollar which is what you described or total asset protection after 3 years insurance in a home or 6 years assisted living or in home care.

We have to shift no assets and go directly on medicaid after the insurance runs out.

All assets you have are exempt from any look back and are exempt from medicaid formulas.

We also have total income protection for the stay at home spouse and are not limited to medicaid limits.

We have a special version of medicaid called extended medicaid which is made to go with the plans and have their own special set of rules.

Not all partnership plans in all states offer total asset protection plans.

From what someone said here only ny and indianna offer it as of now.
__________________
mathjak107 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2015, 04:29 PM   #115
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords View Post
Boy, was that a stroll down memory lane. I'll write an update over there to cap it off.

My father's been in that care facility for 4.5 years now and will turn 82 years old in a few months. He's still alert and mobile, but he's slowing down. Every week his energy levels and his cognition decline by a fraction of a percentage. He's still deep into mid-stage Alzheimer's and he spends most of his time doing jigsaw puzzles. Well, technically that's jigsaw puzzle-- every morning the same puzzle is brand-new for the first time all over again.

My experiences with John Hancock have hardened my opinion about long-term care insurance:
Why I Won't Buy Long-Term Care Insurance - Military Guide


I think you made the right choice to abandon the policy.

Genworth is probably heaving a huge sigh of relief, too.
I think the experience you had could be true of any type of insurance.

You can pull out the words long term care and replace it with home insurance.

Many new yorkers are still fighting it out from their claims for sandy and with similiar issues of being short changed.
__________________
mathjak107 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2015, 05:01 PM   #116
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,661
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107 View Post
Our state offers either dollar for a dollar which is what you described or total asset protection after 3 years insurance in a home or 6 years assisted living or in home care.

We have to shift no assets and go directly on medicaid after the insurance runs out.

All assets you have are exempt from any look back and are exempt from medicaid formulas.

We also have total income protection for the stay at home spouse and are not limited to medicaid limits.

We have a special version of medicaid called extended medicaid which is made to go with the plans and have their own special set of rules.

Not all partnership plans in all states offer total asset protection plans.

From what someone said here only ny and indianna offer it as of now.
I had stated the New York and Illinois (IL) have total asset protection. NY have total asset protection and dollar for dollar plans. The pages I've seen online do not describe it well. They note dollar for dollar are dependent on the benefits paid. If like many other states the assets that you could maintain would be those allowed by typical medicare plus the benefits paid by your insurance (this is dollar for dollar plan). You would have to spend down to this level before MEC would step in. My understanding of total asset protection is that enhanced medicaid will start paying after LTCi is exhausted. Please correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding.
__________________
bingybear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2015, 05:04 PM   #117
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,413
yep , that is it . the extended medicaid pays the bills once the insurance runs out and all assets are not counted .
__________________

__________________
mathjak107 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Long term loss combined with long term gain dmpi FIRE and Money 9 12-21-2012 04:27 PM
Long-term Care Insurance and Life Insurance thatgirlmjl Young Dreamers 15 01-20-2012 12:24 PM
Yet another HI premium hike. Anyone else? Zoocat Health and Early Retirement 11 07-08-2011 06:29 AM
Federal Long Term Care Insurance Premium Increases Purron Health and Early Retirement 77 11-24-2009 08:17 PM
Long-Term Care - Part of Health Care Reform Bill chinaco Health and Early Retirement 3 07-19-2009 03:53 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:17 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.