Long term care meeting

[youbet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mathjak107 finally we got approval yesterday for our long term care policies..

How much are the premiums and what is the maximum payout in dollars?

[Rustic23]

I consider us 'self insured' however, I don't have a huge stack of bills in a safe to cover the expenses. We have current income to cover LTC and current living expense.

[mathjak107]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SJ1_ +1 and make sure that that is what the policy actually says. What a salesman said or didn't say will not matter 30 yrs from now, what is in the policy will. I was under the impression that there is no such think as a policy that does not have the premiums go up? and that is one of the main reasons LTC is a waste

Does not your home and auto insurance go up over time?

I wouldn't say it is a waste.

in fact 77% of us will need in home care at some point . what do you think home insurance would cost with a 77% chance we would all file claims.

[Taxman59]

Getting it in writing is meaningless UNLESS the letter is signed by an officer of the insurance company. The agent can't bind the insurance company. I have gotten a $500k settlement (all premiums paid, legal fees and interest lost) on a policy that turned out to be what the agent promised. The insurer said we could get the CSV only, but when their legal dept talked to our attorney and looked at the letter signed by the insurance company corporate officer, the only remaining question was how much interest!


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[Chuckanut]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mathjak107 Does not your home and auto insurance go up over time? I wouldn't say it is a waste. in fact 77% of us will need in home care at some point . what do you think home insurance would cost with a 77% chance we would all file claims.

No. It's not a waste. IMHO, LTCI is more like life insurance. When I bought my life insurance I was given a premium table. It showed the lowest, expected and highest premium I would pay. Obviously, by purchasing it earlier in life, I got a better rate than buying it later, or after I had been seriously ill.

When I can see that in a LTCI plan, I will consider buying it. Currently, from what I understand of LTCI, new customers are paying huge rates to make up for the fact that they insurance companies underestimated the usage of the previous LTCI policies. At some point the insurance industry has to get a grip on this problem.

[dallas27]

Quote:

Originally Posted by marko With a NW of >$6M at <45 of age, I'm not sure what problem you're trying to solve. By the time you'd need LTC your NW could be well over $25M in today's money. Pay the bill.

Me bed-stricken, a nurse, and 6 million dollars. Only one way that story ends.


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[mathjak107]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckanut No. It's not a waste. IMHO, LTCI is more like life insurance. When I bought my life insurance I was given a premium table. It showed the lowest, expected and highest premium I would pay. Obviously, by purchasing it earlier in life, I got a better rate than buying it later, or after I had been seriously ill. When I can see that in a LTCI plan, I will consider buying it. Currently, from what I understand of LTCI, new customers are paying huge rates to make up for the fact that they insurance companies underestimated the usage of the previous LTCI policies. At some point the insurance industry has to get a grip on this problem.

the huge increases were really to the older policy holders ,some who even had lifetime benefits.

the actuaries got the early years wrong and eventually those folks saw 30-40% increases up to the levels it should have been.

kind of like living in a rent stabilized apartment and then getting a bigger than normal rent increase voted in.

today it seems they have it priced right and increases have been very slight if at all.

[Free To Canoe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mathjak107 ... in fact 77% of us will need in home care at some point ....

Nursing home
Average stay 1 year
Percent needing this in a lifetime 35

There's more in this non-insurance company link that maybe the OP can use at his meeting.

How Much Care Will You Need? - Long-Term Care Information

[dtbach]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mathjak107 so my question is what are you doing with the money for the long term care you are self insuring with? if keeping it invested what if we have an extended down turn and it is a fraction of the amount? usually self insuring just means i will roll the dice, hope i don't need care and no provisions are generally made . what really swayed us is when we met with our estate attorney he was telling us how a big part of his business today is folks coming to him after the fact they need that care and trying to scramble to protect assets and negotiate settlements with medicaid so as to avoid actually blowing through that money they never really set aside. one other big factor when self insuring and not all that wealthy: every dollar you spend as the stay at home spouse is a dollar less you yourself have to live on or as security. it means alot of expenditures for things do not get made because everything becomes a trade off. more often than not the care would be alot nicer and better if someone else was paying for it other than the spouse that has to continue to pay these bills and maintain their lifestyle as well. just food for thought.

You can go broke trying to insure every possibility. I just don't think the $$ involved is worth it. I'll take cruises any day over worrying about nursing home expenses. To each his own.

[mathjak107]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free To Canoe Nursing home Average stay 1 year Percent needing this in a lifetime 35 There's more in this non-insurance company link that maybe the OP can use at his meeting. How Much Care Will You Need? - Long-Term Care Information

only problem is averages mean nothing to us humans . they only mean something to insurers.

as humans we can only have 1 of two outcomes. things either work out or they don't. kind of like trying to be a little bit pregnant.

that is why even average life expectancy means little in retiremenrt planning . insurers can tell you how many people a year will die but since they can't tell us who smart planning says we plan to 90 or 95 regardless. once again things either work out for us or they don't. no statistic needed.

at these rates even a few years of care can leave a stay at home spouse in serious financial trouble if you are the part of the statistic things didn't work out for. personally we won't take that chance it is one of us.

[mathjak107]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtbach You can go broke trying to insure every possibility. I just don't think the $$ involved is worth it. I'll take cruises any day over worrying about nursing home expenses. To each his own.

you don't need to insure everything in life ,just the stuff that will be catastrophic. it also does not mean you need to insure fully either- homes in our area are about 400 a day inflation adjusted . i took 300 a day insurance inflation adjusted. . i will eat the rest if i have to.

[pb4uski]

We are self insuring for now. If one of us needs nursing home care in our later years, we could handle the cost depending on how long it lasts. The disaster scenario is that we both need nursing home care for many years - which just means that DD and DS would get a much lower or no inheritance.

I guess in a way, the potential redundancy of a low WR is our LTC insurance.

I have priced out LTC insurance and the cost seems much to high in relation to the likely benefits.

[dtbach]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb4uski We are self insuring for now. If one of us needs nursing home care in our later years, we could handle the cost depending on how long it lasts. The disaster scenario is that we both need nursing home care for many years - which just means that DD and DS would get a much lower or no inheritance. I guess in a way, the potential redundancy of a low WR is our LTC insurance. I have priced out LTC insurance and the cost seems much to high in relation to the likely benefits.

That's pretty much the take I have on LTC.

[rodi]

Our long term care insurance is our home if the nursing home care goes longer than 1 year or is for both of us.

We could pull significant equity out and have the community spouse downsize to a smaller house or condo. Our next door neighbors are in their late 80's and just moved to a nursing home a few weeks ago and their house is under contract. They priced to sell and I suspect there was a bidding war - and the house sales price will be higher than the list price. They can afford to have both of them in a top of the line nursing home for about 5 years on the proceeds of the home sale. I presume they have other assets as well. Given their age and health issues - I suspect they will still have plenty left over to pass on to their kids. Their kids handled everything - including making sure their parents were in a very nice place - obviously they know there's enough money.

That's my plan. Hire in home help (much cheaper than a nursing home) while it's practical - then sell or downsize and use the equity to pay out.

[mathjak107]

Our view is that after 20 years of payments that comes to about what just 1 year of a nursing home costs.

for that premium we get:

we don't have a 5 year look back period as all we need is 3 years of insurance coverage and the 5 year look back does not apply.

no shifting of assets needed at all.

most important if Medicaid is needed after the insurance runs out no limit on the stay at home spouses income which typically is low Medicaid limits even if assets are shifted.


lastly we can keep our money fully invested without fear it will be needed and markets down a lot.

to us that premium is a small price to pay

[sengsational]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mathjak107 Our view is that after 20 years of payments that comes to about what just 1 year of a nursing home costs.

So how much are the premiums, again? Sorry if I missed that. And this would be for one or two?

What would be the maximum payout on your policy?

[Dash man]

Our group policy through my former employer covers us for $490/day each in a nursing home or half that if we need in home care. We've had the policy for 15 years and we currently pay about $3,000/year for both of us at age 58. It pays up to a maximum dollar amount of $960K each. It allows us to increase the amount for inflation if we choose to every three years. We recently took the inflation increase that cost us $386 more, bringing the annual amount up to $3,000. With my MIL recently going into a memory care facility, we've seen the different options out there and are glad we"ll be able to afford a nice place for us if necessary. A few years after we purchased the policies we both developed health conditions that would prevent us from being able to acquire the insurance today, or at least without paying exorbitant rates. We could self insure at this point thanks to some good stock purchases, but this allows us to pass on some money to our kids...unless we spend it all having fun.

[mathjak107]

just approved 2 days ago after a 3 month investigation , them sending an examiner to the house and memory testing.

we will be getting the rates in a day or two.

but for 2 adults , I am 62 and wife 64 we are expecting about 6800.00 or so and off that we get a 15% or 20% ny state tax credit and whatever we are over the threshold when combined with other medical we can take as a deduction on the federal.

we took 300 per day inflation adjusted by 5% every year.

[pb4uski]

Are there any limits on premium increases? That would be my concern. Another concern would be the financial strength of the insurer (I'm not sure I would accept Genworth).

[mathjak107]

no limits , just like any other insurance. but in order to keep a customer base an insurer has to watch the costs.

the original increases were because they had no idea how to price the early policies.

today they have a better handle on things.

like all insurance sold in our state insurers here have to agree to absorb the customer base of any troubled company. many states have the same insurance rules.

AM BEST gives genworth an "A" rating of excellent