Low NW FIRE

[Fermion]

Traveling around in an RV to various parts of the country and then buying some cheap mountain property in eastern Washington, I have realized the basics are just not that expensive, especially while you can mostly ignore healthcare costs (might change, might not).

We are renting a 1bd-rm apartment in the local town for $525 a month, WSG included. Not a section 8 place, rather a quite cute little complex with mostly older retired folk (we will be the young uns). We are going to use our mountain property to stretch our legs and we plan to ride snowmobiles, ski, and snow shoe this winter. It is just going to be too cold to try and live in the RV on the mountain property without the few outbuildings we plan on constructing next year.

So $525 for rent, maybe $100 a month for electricity, $55 for unlimited internet/cell phone, $105 for health insurance (per couple, $550 max OOP). The apartment is right smack in the middle of town and walking to Safeway is a couple blocks. Library is one block away.

So what investments do you need to support this? $785 a month, $9420 a year, so at 4% that is a nest egg of $235,500.

That covers your bare basic shelter plus healthcare (and internet)

Now you just need food. We cook all of our meals now because of sodium content and spend about $700 a month but that could be toned down bit if you don't eat so much meat. We make lamb khorma, thai stir fry with ginger and garlic plus about 12 different veggies, beef stew, steak and baked potato. Quite a long way from eating cat food. $700 a month, $8400 a year requires $210,000 at 4%

So shelter, healthcare, food for $445,500 invested. A lean lifestyle perhaps but walks in the park, hiking in the mountains, visits to the library, working on various computer games and projects...it is not prison.

Now consider an additional $1,000,000 invested. $40,000 a year to take trips and buy luxuries. What is that, at least 6 to 8 cruises a year?

And $1,445,500 would be considered a quite low net worth on this forum.

It is when you support two homes, have two cars, kids in college, etc. For some people who are willing to simplify, it really allows for quite a vast amount of spending on frivolous stuff.

Healthcare could change and take a big bite out of this, but even at $20,000 a year health care costs, you could still have $20,000 left per year for luxuries and cruises.

 

[Blue Collar Guy]

We are renting a 1bd-rm apartment in the local town for $525 a month, WSG included. Not a section 8 place,...

Hahahhaah,.

 

[FIREd]

I've been spending more time on Reddit's financial independence sub forum these days. There are more posts about frugal and middle class living, which is what I'm interested in. Plus the posts there get voted on so the humble brags, the not so humble brags, and passive aggressive comments, "it so great you can live on only $75K but I require 89 times that to be happy" and "I'm so glad I don't have to skimp" kind of posts get downvoted into oblivion.

My wife and I "only" live on $75K (a bit less actually) and I was commenting the other day how good we have it!

Fixed expenses: $33K which includes groceries (Whole Foods and Publix), non-subsidized health insurance premiums, dental insurance premiums, cell phones (2 iPhones with unlimited data plans), utilities, fast speed internet, Netflix/Amazon Prime/HBO Now, property taxes, fuel, car/home/umbrella insurance, termite control, hair cuts, gym membership, car registration, pets, income taxes

That's for 2 people with a fully paid home (average house in a safe neighborhood), one car (new, non-luxury), 2 cats, no cable TV, no landline, average COL area.

Relatives on lower budgets usually keep fixed expenses even lower: no iPhones, slower but still adequate internet connection, no shopping at Whole Foods (Aldi is a fave), some form of subsidized healthcare, lower utilities (we keep the temperature inside the house on 74/70F in summer/winter, they go for 78/68F), etc...

Variable expenses: $12K. It is money we set aside each year to pay for things like medical out-of-pocket expenses, car replacement, home and car repairs, and miscellaneous.

With a $75K budget, it leaves about $30K to blow on... whatever! That's a lot of money! Well I think so at least...

 

[Fermion]

Hahahhaah,.

It *does* sound like it would be section 8, doesn't it?

3bd-rm homes in this town rent for $700 to $800 a month. Not a place where I would want to be a landlord!

 

[dvalley]

I joined this forum to learn from others smarter than me, not to feel good. I also can't think of a better place to learn how to grow beyond the <$1MM NW group.

Remember that done right, you're not drawing down from a static NW; your starting point at RE is often lower than where you'll be 10 years from now. What you learn here could help you get there.

I'd hate to see folks wall themselves away from others just to 'legitimize their way of life'! What's the point of coming here then? The idea is to become "financially independent" (that's what the FI in FIRE stands for)

As far as others making one feel bad about their situation, I can't think of a more welcoming, friendly, non-judgmental place on the entire internet than right here. Really. But you're not going to get support from people here if you're only retirement plan is 'quit my job and hope for the best'.

Woah woah woah there! I think you're making a lot of assumptions in your post. Are you suggesting people retiring on less than <$1MM aren't smart or you can't learn from them? I find it to be quite the opposite. Folks that have less to live on are often more creative. They've figured out how to lower their expenses. They've figured out why they don't have to wait on the OMY cycle and they can do it much earlier than those who are waiting for the perfect time, perfect weather, perfect balance etc.

I find all these inspirational. I see posts here 'I have $5M I'm afraid to retire' I never click on those because I can't relate to their situation. There's nothing for me to learn from their situation. Why? because in 8-10yrs before I hit my FIRE age I can't come up with an additional $4MM on my $100k salary.

Lastly there are several sub forums here already, just by having another doesn't mean you now can't read the others. That's what's great about having choices. You pick what you like.

 

[Lawrencewendall]

100% agree. One of the best on-line communities for sure.

I got addicted just reading the stickies. Had to join!

 

[Totoro]

Are we humble bragging low expenses now

I live pretty well on ~25k right now. My 'tighten belt' scenario can squeeze that down to 17k reasonably easy, basically remove the latte factor, cook a bit more myself and downgrade transportation. Move to lower cost country, 12k.

Whatever NW you think is needed to sustain that, it's well below 1M.

 

[Major Tom]

Are we humble bragging low expenses now

I live pretty well on ~25k right now. My 'tighten belt' scenario can squeeze that down to 17k reasonably easy, basically remove the latte factor, cook a bit more myself and downgrade transportation. Move to lower cost country, 12k.

Whatever NW you think is needed to sustain that, it's well below 1M.

Yes, it's not rocket science but somehow, we manage to fill whole threads with discussions on the subject

A lean lifestyle perhaps but walks in the park, hiking in the mountains, visits to the library, working on various computer games and projects...it is not prison.

I enjoyed reading Fermion's entire post, but the above sentence is a point worth highlighting, I think. At the lower income levels, the fanatics help to create the perception that living on a modest amount of money is, by necessity, an exercise in denial and spartan living. It is not everyone's cup of tea, but to think that all people living on low incomes are leading lives of quiet desperation, is a mistake.

 

[Red Badger]

We should start a <$1M club here so it's easy to find inspiration from folks here who are living proof it can be done. I'd love to read their blog-style posts and see how they're doing.

+1.
I'd be a member.

 

[Blue Collar Guy]

. It is not everyone's cup of tea, but to think that all people living on low incomes are leading lives of quiet desperation, is a mistake.

I like tea, I dont fancy paying a buck for a 2 cent tea bag, 5 cents worth of sugar and a penny's worth of hot water. I order it with honey, this way I feel like im gettin my moneys worth.

 

[Blue Collar Guy]

. It is not everyone's cup of tea, but to think that all people living on low incomes are leading lives of quiet desperation, is a mistake.

I like tea, I dont fancy paying a buck for a 2 cent tea bag, 5 cents worth of sugar and a penny's worth of hot water. I order it with honey, this way I feel like im gettin my moneys worth.

Yeah +1 on your post too

 

[dallas27]

After a discussion with a 50ish friend who feels he can never retire due his low NW, I was wondering how many here have FIREd on less than a million in invest able Net Worth? Why not tell us how? Low expenses? Low COL area?



Does not have to be exact figures: could be referred to as "under $750k", "just under 1M", etc. Those working at a PT or hobby job could also be included in FIRE discussion.



My guess is that some view our forum and get a little discouraged when they read about the "heavy hitters" who post. Perhaps we could encourage a few people.



Who's in?

1 million in what years' dollars?

 

[marko]

I like tea, I dont fancy paying a buck for a 2 cent tea bag, 5 cents worth of sugar and a penny's worth of hot water. I order it with honey, this way I feel like im gettin my moneys worth.

Blue, more and more your replies remind me of Andy Rooney (or Jack Kerouac)

 

[Nature Lover]

We should start a <$1M club here so it's easy to find inspiration from folks here who are living proof it can be done. I'd love to read their blog-style posts and see how they're doing.

+1

 

[marko]

Woah woah woah there! I think you're making a lot of assumptions in your post. Are you suggesting people retiring on less than <$1MM aren't smart or you can't learn from them?

Sorry if the tone was harsh. Quite the contrary. I try to learn from everyone.

I was responding to your comment that folks with "...<$1MM but they don't post much likely because all the belt-suspender types tell them how they're doomed etc. So legitimizing their way of life by creating a sub-section here would generate a lot more interest from those of us who can't really relate to the $1.5M+ folks...."

What I meant was that my experience with the 'belt and suspender types' here is that they're mostly just trying to help/inform/caution those who may be under prepared and 2) that creating a 'relatable' sub-section might limit visibility for some who could use the most help. If all you do is stick inside a comfort zone where nobody challenges you it can be dangerous from a RE standpoint.

I have no problem getting advice from anyone and want them to say "have you considered the risks of X, Y and Z?"

 

[pj.mask]

I enjoy fancy things - recently flew international business class and stayed in fancy hotels (from reward points earned through work). I also enjoy minimalist things - I like wearing hiking clothes I can wash in the shower at night and wear the next day; really cuts down on the number of outfits you need.

I think there is enjoyment to be found in life no matter your budget if you value relationships and experiences over possessions and status.

 

[brucethebroker]

Traveling around in an RV to various parts of the country and then buying some cheap mountain property in eastern Washington, I have realized the basics are just not that expensive, especially while you can mostly ignore healthcare costs (might change, might not).

We are renting a 1bd-rm apartment in the local town for $525 a month, WSG included. Not a section 8 place, rather a quite cute little complex with mostly older retired folk (we will be the young uns). We are going to use our mountain property to stretch our legs and we plan to ride snowmobiles, ski, and snow shoe this winter. It is just going to be too cold to try and live in the RV on the mountain property without the few outbuildings we plan on constructing next year.

So $525 for rent, maybe $100 a month for electricity, $55 for unlimited internet/cell phone, $105 for health insurance (per couple, $550 max OOP). The apartment is right smack in the middle of town and walking to Safeway is a couple blocks. Library is one block away.

So what investments do you need to support this? $785 a month, $9420 a year, so at 4% that is a nest egg of $235,500.

That covers your bare basic shelter plus healthcare (and internet)

Now you just need food. We cook all of our meals now because of sodium content and spend about $700 a month but that could be toned down bit if you don't eat so much meat. We make lamb khorma, thai stir fry with ginger and garlic plus about 12 different veggies, beef stew, steak and baked potato. Quite a long way from eating cat food. $700 a month, $8400 a year requires $210,000 at 4%

So shelter, healthcare, food for $445,500 invested. A lean lifestyle perhaps but walks in the park, hiking in the mountains, visits to the library, working on various computer games and projects...it is not prison.

Now consider an additional $1,000,000 invested. $40,000 a year to take trips and buy luxuries. What is that, at least 6 to 8 cruises a year?

And $1,445,500 would be considered a quite low net worth on this forum.

It is when you support two homes, have two cars, kids in college, etc. For some people who are willing to simplify, it really allows for quite a vast amount of spending on frivolous stuff.

Healthcare could change and take a big bite out of this, but even at $20,000 a year health care costs, you could still have $20,000 left per year for luxuries and cruises.

Well done, and well stated....

 

[marko]

I enjoy fancy things - recently flew international business class and stayed in fancy hotels (from reward points earned through work). I also enjoy minimalist things - I like wearing hiking clothes I can wash in the shower at night and wear the next day; really cuts down on the number of outfits you need.

I think there is enjoyment to be found in life no matter your budget if you value relationships and experiences over possessions and status.

Living well is the best revenge

 

[HFWR]

My NW is eight figures, if you include the digits to the right of the decimal point...

 

[imoldernu]

Hard to know where to start.Currently 81.
Retired 1989 @age 53 after 30 yrs mgt, and own business.
1989 dollars, NW including all $500k.
No Pension.
4 Kids - 3 College, 1 self employed.
Took max SS @ age 62 in 1998... plus DW's SS, 1/2 of mine.
Current total assets about the same as 1989.
Own 1600 sf newer home in Peru IL CCRC, FL mfg home in Leesburg FL, and Lakefront camp 25 miles from here in Woodhaven Lakes.
96 Cadillac, 98 lincoln Signature Town Car.
Liquid assets in IBonds, Small annuity, tiny portfolio and 1/2 yr expenses in cash.

I couldn't explain the intervening years in a few words, so most of the past 28 years of total retirement are spelled out in this thread. Sorry... no advice on how to invest, as we never did.

http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f27/sharing-23-years-of-frugal-retirement-62251.html

Won't be interesting to the oldtimers here, but maybe a way to take the edge off the fear of not having enough. As best I can remember, no long periods of stress about not making it.

 

[MrLoco]

I agree, I think many live in the world of illusion. I yell when I see posts "you need 500 Thousand for medical care or you cant retire", or "I have 5 million I think I need to work 12 more years!" . Its crazy in here sometimes. I just found this article from 2 days ago, 80 % of retires have less than 700k That includes their house. 50 % have less than 100k , https://dqydj.com/the-net-worth-of-american-retirees-america-2013/

Or my travel budget is $47,272 a year, but If i tighten my belt I could go down to $44,000. really?! Most people are cool with a trip to Las Vegas, see a show and talk about it for the next 20 years. They dont break out the videos on their trip to the Pyramids in 2015, the Antarctic Glaciers in 2016 trip etc. I could go on a rant but I think most get my point,

It's not about how little one can survive on.....the idea is to have enough money to do just about anything you want. If a trip to Vegas once every 20 years is a "once in a life time " experience....well ok ..... but some of use want more. And more takes more money.
My wife and I love cruising. We take about 3 cruises every year of between 30-60 days each. This costs us about $100,000 for cruises alone. We don't need to do this but we want to .... and this is where a higher net worth becomes necessary.

Hell....I guess if we all wanted to , we could just pitch a tent somewhere and live on our SS checks ....but I always thought the idea was to live ....not just exist.

BTW......don't knock Antartica. We have been there twice. Beats the hell out of Vegas....and a lot less crowded!

 

[Fermion]

It's not about how little one can survive on.....the idea is to have enough money to do just about anything you want. If a trip to Vegas once every 20 years is a "once in a life time " experience....well ok ..... but some of use want more. And more takes more money.
My wife and I love cruising. We take about 3 cruises every year of between 30-60 days each. This costs us about $100,000 for cruises alone. We don't need to do this but we want to .... and this is where a higher net worth becomes necessary.

Hell....I guess if we all wanted to , we could just pitch a tent somewhere and live on our SS checks ....but I always thought the idea was to live ....not just exist.

BTW......don't knock Antartica. We have been there twice. Beats the hell out of Vegas....and a lot less crowded!

Yes but for most people to achieve the level of net worth that allows them to do these "more" things, like trips to Antarctica for ice cream twice a year would involve them working until age 60. A few are fortunate to have a very high income and live in the correct market to achieve that level sooner but most are not.

So if you choose to retire at 45, then maybe you can't afford a lot of the exotic trips, but you have 15 years of better health to do some of the cheaper things. It cost only about $100 for us to hike the West Coast trail on the outer edge of Vancouver island. We had to take 50 pound packs and climb 200 foot ladders up cliffs but it was one of the most memorable trips I have taken, and I have been to Paris four times. Try doing that West Coast trail at age 60 or 65. It will kick your butt for most people.

 

[Music Lover]

It's not about how little one can survive on.....the idea is to have enough money to do just about anything you want.

Of course. But many of us do exactly what we want...they just happen to be things that don't cost a lot of money. Reading, playing music, playing sports, hanging with friends, etc. Some people like cruises, but I wouldn't go on a cruise even if it was free.

 

[Moemg]

.
My wife and I love cruising. We take about 3 cruises every year of between 30-60 days each. This costs us about $100,000 for cruises alone. We don't need to do this but we want to .... and this is where a higher net worth becomes necessary.

!

You need to read Nemo's posts on travel . He travels extensively on a low budget .There are several other members who travel extensively but I bet they do not spend anything like $100,000 a year .

 

[Fermion]

I think the problem is people have been sold on the fact that if they don't spend a ton of money traveling to exotic locations, they are not living their life to the fullest. The same people will fly first class to Tokyo (sitting in a chair in a confined space much smaller than our RV) spending many thousands of dollars and yet they have never hiked to the 90 foot waterfall 10 miles from their house.