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View Poll Results: LTC - how do you plan to manage/cover this risk?
purchase LTCI 31 18.24%
Purchase Life insurance with LTC rider 1 0.59%
Self Insure -- how are you doing this? 81 47.65%
Purchase annuity that could be used for LTC, distributed other wise 1 0.59%
Other 7 4.12%
Roll the dice -- no real plan (yet) 49 28.82%
Voters: 170. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-12-2015, 02:07 PM   #41
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My LTC costs ~ $1500/yr, so an outlay of $30k from now until I'm 81 (discounting opportunity costs...). At that price it's "worth" the coverage. If rates go up much, I'll reevaluate.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:11 PM   #42
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For LTC specifically, if our money actually runs out we will depend on our kids. I am not sure but I think this is the way humans have done it for a long time, although humans died at an earlier age in the past.
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:44 PM   #43
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Here is another take on what asset range has the highest probability of benefiting from LTC insurance:

"Although Medicaid laws and limits are given here for illustrative purposes only and are subject to change and interpretation, understanding them does help explain many experts’ contention that there is a narrow window of wealth that should determine a couple’s need for long-term care insurance. At the bottom end, if non-home, non-car assets are below $115,920, Medicaid will kick in to fund the partner who needs long-term care. At the upper end, if non-home assets are above about $700,000, a couple can self-fund most nursing home stays without depleting assets. It is those whose wealth ranges from about $150,000 to $700,000 who have the greatest need for conventional long-term care insurance."

From a PBS online article:
Insured for old age? An economist explains the dangers of long-term care insurance
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:53 PM   #44
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We are similarly situated to Katsmeow (or will be, when we retire) - "We are self insuring. We are really in the sort of in the middle group... That is, enough assets to want to protect them, but not so many that it is easy to self insure. We are in that group of people that is the theoretical market for long term care insurance."
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Old 08-12-2015, 04:01 PM   #45
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Another option when faced with extreme LTC is to just go to Vegas and make one or a couple big bets. If you win, pay for the LTC yourself, if you lose, declare bankruptcy.

Seems about the same gamble as paying $$$ every month for insurance which may or may not even be any good when you need it.
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Old 08-12-2015, 04:11 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HFWR View Post
My LTC costs ~ $1500/yr, so an outlay of $30k from now until I'm 81 (discounting opportunity costs...). At that price it's "worth" the coverage. If rates go up much, I'll reevaluate.
Our two LTCI policies cost us under $1,200/yr combined for the first 14 years, now the cost is up to $1,750/yr after a 50% increase last year. Still think the coverage is worth keeping, but if/when the rates go up again I'll take another look at it. After all, it is insurance, not an investment...
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Old 08-12-2015, 04:17 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by daylatedollarshort View Post
Here is another take on what asset range has the highest probability of benefiting from LTC insurance:

"Although Medicaid laws and limits are given here for illustrative purposes only and are subject to change and interpretation, understanding them does help explain many experts’ contention that there is a narrow window of wealth that should determine a couple’s need for long-term care insurance. At the bottom end, if non-home, non-car assets are below $115,920, Medicaid will kick in to fund the partner who needs long-term care. At the upper end, if non-home assets are above about $700,000, a couple can self-fund most nursing home stays without depleting assets. It is those whose wealth ranges from about $150,000 to $700,000 who have the greatest need for conventional long-term care insurance."

From a PBS online article:
Insured for old age? An economist explains the dangers of long-term care insurance
We couldn't pay our bills on 700k generating our income even without trying to pay 120k a year for long term care
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Old 08-12-2015, 04:17 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daylatedollarshort View Post
Here is another take on what asset range has the highest probability of benefiting from LTC insurance:

"Although Medicaid laws and limits are given here for illustrative purposes only and are subject to change and interpretation, understanding them does help explain many experts’ contention that there is a narrow window of wealth that should determine a couple’s need for long-term care insurance. At the bottom end, if non-home, non-car assets are below $115,920, Medicaid will kick in to fund the partner who needs long-term care. At the upper end, if non-home assets are above about $700,000, a couple can self-fund most nursing home stays without depleting assets. It is those whose wealth ranges from about $150,000 to $700,000 who have the greatest need for conventional long-term care insurance."

From a PBS online article:
Insured for old age? An economist explains the dangers of long-term care insurance
That's interesting. If I go by that then we would be in the upper end. The numbers above are lower for self-insurance than I've seen before.
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Old 08-12-2015, 04:40 PM   #49
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I voted that we would self insure. Prior to retiring we explored the Fed Group LTC but DW was denied. We had been paying on two whole life insurance policies with a LTC option which we calculated would make up the difference between what LTC would cost and what pension and SS benefits could cover. Several years ago we dropped the whole life polices and now will rely on our investments to make up the difference.
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Old 08-12-2015, 05:50 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by DEC-1982 View Post
For LTC specifically, if our money actually runs out we will depend on our kids. I am not sure but I think this is the way humans have done it for a long time, although humans died at an earlier age in the past.
I know this is the way it used to work. But I know of no one doing this now - at least not at the "skilled care" level. Perhaps, as in Hawaii, mom and dad live with the kids and kick in their SS for expenses. But if mom/dad need constant care, few families today are up to providing that level. I just can't picture how that would work out in today's world. Do the kids quit one of their j*bs and stay home to care for mom and/or dad on a full time basis? Do they pay for mom and/or dad's stay in the care home at ($5000 to $8000/month)? While this WAS the model, I don't see it happening in the "western" world.

We joked with our youngest that we were going to move in with her when we got old and decrepit. She retorted that she would find us a travel trailer instead. Very funny - or not. YMMV
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Old 08-12-2015, 05:58 PM   #51
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There are probably more Qs here about LTCI that any other subject. It never seems to get old, or does it?

Voted that I will self insure. How? By saving/investing and LBYM.

It's already done.
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Old 08-12-2015, 06:40 PM   #52
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I am hoping/waiting for a catastrophic policy which I might consider. It would be structured where i have to cover the first 2-3 years and then it would do the next x years. Probably wishful thinking but it would make sense (at least to me).

Also, the policy mentioned which is all paid sounds almost too good to be true, I must be jealous.
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Old 08-12-2015, 06:55 PM   #53
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You likely won't see it since few americans who are married and not wealthy enough to fully self insure can afford 3 years of out lay while a spouse at home trys to pay the bills for her lifestyle.

I think most folks with some assets will do what we did , we took only 350 a day when our area calls for 400-500 so we will use our funds to help pay what insurance does not.

What we wouldn't want to do is lay out 3 years of costs since we get medicaid to pay the bills after 3 years as part of our deal.
I think the policy's are figured so that the premiums you pay in before reaching the likely age of needing it come to about 1 years care.
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Old 08-12-2015, 08:07 PM   #54
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I had a bare bones policy through my old employer, but it went up quite a bit last year so I dropped it. If married I would have bitten the bullet and kept it as protection for my spouse. But being single Im just going to self insure from this point forward. If I roll though all my assets when in a nursing home and the gov't won't take care of me, just push me into the street. I'd just as soon go that way as dieing in a nursing home anyway.
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Old 08-12-2015, 09:32 PM   #55
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We feel that we can carve out at least $400K in today's dollars if needed to cover LTC costs for one spouse without hurting the standard of living of the other spouse that much. The other spouse then has the remaining portfolio if needed to cover their LTC.

If things go longer - well c'est la vie and many LTC policies would have run out anyway, so same boat.

Assisted living helps with a lot of daily tasks, and that means someone doesn't have to move into a skilled nursing facility just because they need some help every day. I don't think LTC policies cover this intermediate step.
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Old 08-13-2015, 04:16 AM   #56
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Our policy covers assisted living.

Interesting enough is so far 3 states ,ny,ct and florida have been supporting the right to say no law law with some pretty tough actions.

A spouse has the right to refuse to pay for a spouse in a home and the spouse can not be evicted.
Medicaid has to pay but has a right to sue and recovery.

Well a judge in ct's highest court told medicaid he will not impoversh the people of his state because we have a poor long term care policy in this country.

He ruled medicaid and this woman are to find a comfortable payment arraingement that is affordable and he warned medicaid that he wants to see little change in mrs. Jones lifestyle.

New york and florida courts have adopted this policy.

Our estate attorney who is one of the biggest in nyc said he has zero law suits by medicaid since the ct ruling but he is engaged in loads of medicaid negotiations trying to find suitable payment amounts for his clients.
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Old 08-13-2015, 06:06 AM   #57
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I didn't vote because while I purport to self insure what I am really doing is rolling the dice. I have approximately $120k set aside outside of my portfolio (that is, the 120k is excluded when calculating my WR) earmarked for LTC. That would cover one person for one year (median length of stay in Florida). After that I would be depleting assets at an alarming rate and someday may need to live on 2k / month in SSI (assuming the remaining assets last 18 years until I am 70). Doable but not ideal. My "consolidation prize" would be the fact that I got out of the rat race and had complete freedom to smell the roses for many more years that the average American.
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Old 08-13-2015, 06:16 AM   #58
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Just curious how you invested that money you set a side ?

If in the general investment pool and not liquid non volatile assets what if we have an extended down turn and you need the money?

You may very well have it safe and isolated but most folks do not. It is just in their portfolios and they hope they don't need it at a bad point in time for their investments.

When you self insure one really needs to consider this fact.

That is a point i never thought about until money magazine did a story on us years a go and i said we would self insure
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Old 08-13-2015, 07:26 AM   #59
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You likely won't see it since few americans who are married and not wealthy enough to fully self insure can afford 3 years of out lay while a spouse at home trys to pay the bills for her lifestyle.

I think most folks with some assets will do what we did , we took only 350 a day when our area calls for 400-500 so we will use our funds to help pay what insurance does not.

What we wouldn't want to do is lay out 3 years of costs since we get medicaid to pay the bills after 3 years as part of our deal.
I think the policy's are figured so that the premiums you pay in before reaching the likely age of needing it come to about 1 years care.
So I assume you have a partnership plan with unlimited asset protection, correct? My understanding is that only 2 states offer these plans, thus most people don't have access to them (unless you can by insurance from a different states plan). My present state does not offer them. I am also not sure about the reciprocity with states that don't offer these plans... that is will they honor the unlimited asset protection. I believe the answer to this is no.
This is one of the types of plans I would seriously consider.
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Old 08-13-2015, 07:44 AM   #60
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Do the kids quit one of their j*bs and stay home to care for mom and/or dad on a full time basis?
DW quit her job for a while to take care of her dad till he passed away. I am not saying it was an easy decision. Every family is different, and every culture is different.

The simple truth is LTC insurance is structured in a way as to be unattractive for us.
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