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View Poll Results: LTC - how do you plan to manage/cover this risk?
purchase LTCI 31 18.24%
Purchase Life insurance with LTC rider 1 0.59%
Self Insure -- how are you doing this? 81 47.65%
Purchase annuity that could be used for LTC, distributed other wise 1 0.59%
Other 7 4.12%
Roll the dice -- no real plan (yet) 49 28.82%
Voters: 170. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-18-2015, 02:47 PM   #161
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What are some of the guidelines you'd use? Multi-millionaire children get sued? Or maybe also kids with one million? Maybe kids who are solidly middle class but really don't have anything "extra" unless they sell the house, pull their kids from college, etc. How about kids just barely getting by and currently ill-prepared for retirement? Would you sue them? Give us some examples of where you'd draw the lines.
If I were representing the state, it would not be my call as to the decisionmaking criteria. That is an executive/political decision. Given the text of the statutes, though, I suspect that they wouldn't much care. Going after someone who was "barely getting by and currently ill-prepared for retirement" would not be prudent on a cost-benefit level though.

How about you? If you were my state-executive client and charged with faithfully executing the laws and guarding the public fisc, where would you draw the line?
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Old 08-18-2015, 02:53 PM   #162
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it would not be my call as to the decisionmaking criteria

OK. Mine neither.
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Old 08-18-2015, 03:02 PM   #163
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If I were representing the state, it would not be my call as to the decisionmaking criteria. That is an executive/political decision. Given the text of the statutes, though, I suspect that they wouldn't much care. Going after someone who was "barely getting by and currently ill-prepared for retirement" would not be prudent on a cost-benefit level though.

How about you? If you were my state-executive client and charged with faithfully executing the laws and guarding the public fisc, where would you draw the line?
I would think the state would have to enforce the law uniformly. If the law does not define limiting rules and guidelines, they likely could have counter suits and appeals to the Supreme Court of the state.

I could see this stuff if $ were shifted late in life, but not just because someone is related. JMO
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Old 08-18-2015, 03:07 PM   #164
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I could see this stuff if $ were shifted late in life, but not just because someone is related. JMO
Bingybear, I don't disagree. It makes me really uncomfortable to envision enforcement of these laws. Sure, there are easy cases at both extremes--but those are extremes.... Frankly, I haven't given it the thought it would require to work through all of the policy ramifications....
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Old 08-18-2015, 03:17 PM   #165
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i would say with most states backing them and with most states requiring healthy company's to take over weaker ones when asked i would say they stand a better chance of the money being there when you need it then your own volatile portfolio does .
quote below from link
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OLDWICK, N.J., Feb 13, 2015 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- A.M. Best has downgraded the financial strength rating (FSR) to A- (Excellent) from A (Excellent) and the issuer credit ratings (ICR) to “a-” from “a” of Genworth Life Insurance Company (GLIC) (Wilmington, DE), Genworth Life Insurance Company of New York (New York, NY) and Genworth Life and Annuity Insurance Company (Richmond, VA), the key life/health subsidiaries of Genworth Financial, Inc. (Genworth) [NYSE: GNW]. Additionally, A.M. Best has downgraded the ICR to “bbb-” from “bbb” of Genworth and its existing debt ratings by one notch. The ratings had been under review with negative implications since Dec. 18, 2014. The outlook assigned to all ratings is stable. (Please see below for a detailed listing of the debt ratings.)

The ratings downgrade follows Genworth’s recent reporting of fourth-quarter 2014 results, which reflected the substantial completion of its long-term care insurance (LTC) active life margin review. Additionally, management confirmed its intention to conduct a thorough review of Genworth’s businesses, encompassing holding company debt reduction and a multistep restructuring plan to streamline operations.
Not the worst rating. I bet the states also have an interest in a piece of the insurance pie. Being partnership plans, I assume that the states get a piece of it to cover the added dollars excluded from medicaid extended benefits.

I have heard reports that Genworth's LTCi business is worthless (evaluating it as a standalone business). Would explain increasing premiums.
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Old 08-18-2015, 03:46 PM   #166
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People appear to be living longer, but not better. Hardly seems worth it, and I wonder why people bother. I am being serious.
Agree ! I have been spending some time thinking about the parameters where I would not want medical intervention. It's very difficult to determine where I would want the lines drawn. As I get older it may even become more difficult. I also have religious considerations which makes it even more complicated.
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Old 08-18-2015, 04:48 PM   #167
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People appear to be living longer, but not better. Hardly seems worth it, and I wonder why people bother. I am being serious.
I agree with you. I have no intention of dragging things out -- but my biggest fear is being physically or mentally incapable of taking matters into my own hand.
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Old 08-18-2015, 06:00 PM   #168
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quote below from link





Not the worst rating. I bet the states also have an interest in a piece of the insurance pie. Being partnership plans, I assume that the states get a piece of it to cover the added dollars excluded from medicaid extended benefits.



I have heard reports that Genworth's LTCi business is worthless (evaluating it as a standalone business). Would explain increasing premiums.

I wouldn't be excited about that debt rating if I had an insurance policy. That is one notch above heading toward junk. I assume some state pools would back them up? I know it isn't near the stage of insolvency, but heck almost all of my low on the food chain preferred stocks have higher debt ratings than that.


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Old 08-18-2015, 06:33 PM   #169
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I wouldn't be excited about that debt rating if I had an insurance policy. That is one notch above heading toward junk. I assume some state pools would back them up? I know it isn't near the stage of insolvency, but heck almost all of my low on the food chain preferred stocks have higher debt ratings than that.


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+1
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LTC -- how do you plan on covering this risk?
Old 08-18-2015, 06:53 PM   #170
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LTC -- how do you plan on covering this risk?

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+1

I guess it could be worse though Bingy.... A person 10 years ago could have put their LTC money into the stock of the company hoping to do better than the insurance policy. Well $100,000 of Genworth stock bought in 2005 would be providing you with $20,000 for LTC today.


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Old 08-18-2015, 07:45 PM   #171
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I agree with you. I have no intention of dragging things out -- but my biggest fear is being physically or mentally incapable of taking matters into my own hand.
The challenge is you have to be willing to leave some on the table so to speak. How to determine how much "some" you are giving up is the hard part.
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Old 08-19-2015, 07:24 AM   #172
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The challenge is you have to be willing to leave some on the table so to speak. How to determine how much "some" you are giving up is the hard part.
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Old 08-19-2015, 07:33 AM   #173
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In the event of a major unexpected hit to our net worth, and the LTC was needed, the healthy spouse would remain in our home, and let Medicaid pay for the nursing home. I continue to be surprised at how few of the members here seem to be aware of this alternative. It allows for continuation of life in a normal manner without the upset of moving for the healthy spouse.

In effect, the medicaid solution avoids trauma, and obviates the sale of the residence. For us, it allows for simplified accounting, since the home value can be included as a liquid asset in planning. (You have to think on this.)
I don't know about the rules in your state but there are restrictions on how much of the assets the healthy spouse can keep; the rest is considered available to pay NH costs till it's gone.

Actually I'm concerned about the number of people whose long-term care "insurance" is Medicaid. Not on this board in particular, but in the general US population. I suspect that as states struggle to pay the bills and cut their rates to nursing homes, the NHs that take a big % of Medicaid patients will be pressured to keep cutting costs resulting in barely-adequate care. That's not how I want to spend my last days.
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Old 08-19-2015, 10:36 AM   #174
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I plan to self insure. Since I am currently single, my plan would be to redirect income and rent my house to cover LTC costs. About $3000 per month from my current budget could go to LTC and about $4000 per month from renting out the house. I should be able to pay the annual costs without depleting assets.
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Old 08-19-2015, 02:25 PM   #175
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i wish our area ran 3k it is 9-10k a month .
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Old 08-21-2015, 12:17 AM   #176
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i wish our area ran 3k it is 9-10k a month .
If you're referring to jkern's post, he said $7k/mo, not $3k.
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Old 08-21-2015, 12:37 AM   #177
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the NHs that take a big % of Medicaid patients will be pressured to keep cutting costs resulting in barely-adequate care.

We found out that that is a big deal here in Illinois. When we were shopping for a NH for my MIL in the Chicago suburbs, no facilities we liked were accepting Medicaid patients off the street. Because MIL could private pay for a year+, and because her SS and some military benefits would partially pay each month beyond that, we were able to negotiate her into a better place. This facility accepts no Medicaid cases from the street and only about 15% of the total patients are Medicaid. Those 15% are folks, like MIL, who ran out of money while in residence and were in a Medicaid qualified bed at the time they ran out of money. The facility gets most of MIL's SS, all of a small military benefit and is waiting patiently for Illinois Medicaid to start paying.

The bottom line is you want to be in a home where most of the residents are private pay and the quality of the facility and the staff reflects that the residents are free to move somewhere else if they are dissatisfied and can find what they think is a better place for their private pay money.

If you can only private pay for a year or two, be careful to pick the right place since once on Medicaid, you won't be welcome at many other places.

If you are on Medicaid from the get-go, get ready for a tough search, at least in NE Illinois. I've heard it's easier to find a decent place that takes Medicaid folks off the street downstate.
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Old 08-21-2015, 12:56 AM   #178
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I would think the state would have to enforce the law uniformly. If the law does not define limiting rules and guidelines, they likely could have counter suits and appeals to the Supreme Court of the state.

I could see this stuff if $ were shifted late in life, but not just because someone is related. JMO
Bear in mind that the Penn case did not involve Medicaid or the State of Penn.

A man from Peru brought his mother to live with him in Penn. While here, she was in a car accident and wound up in a NH to recover from the injuries. When she was released from the NH owing $96k, she left and returned to Peru without paying. The mother had not qualified for Medicaid at the time of her release from the NH. The NH sued the son for the $96k.

This is a bit different than a parent being in a NH on Medicaid and after the parent's death the state sues a child to recoup the Medicaid money. Anything is possible with government and politics, but I'm not concerned about it happening to me (my MIL is in a NH partially on Medicaid right now) when she passes.

(I hope I don't regret saying that! This is Illinois!)
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Old 08-21-2015, 01:35 AM   #179
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We found out that that is a big deal here in Illinois. When we were shopping for a NH for my MIL in the Chicago suburbs, no facilities we liked were accepting Medicaid patients off the street. Because MIL could private pay for a year+, and because her SS and some military benefits would partially pay each month beyond that, we were able to negotiate her into a better place. This facility accepts no Medicaid cases from the street and only about 15% of the total patients are Medicaid. Those 15% are folks, like MIL, who ran out of money while in residence and were in a Medicaid qualified bed at the time they ran out of money. The facility gets most of MIL's SS, all of a small military benefit and is waiting patiently for Illinois Medicaid to start paying.

The bottom line is you want to be in a home where most of the residents are private pay and the quality of the facility and the staff reflects that the residents are free to move somewhere else if they are dissatisfied and can find what they think is a better place for their private pay money.

If you can only private pay for a year or two, be careful to pick the right place since once on Medicaid, you won't be welcome at many other places.

If you are on Medicaid from the get-go, get ready for a tough search, at least in NE Illinois. I've heard it's easier to find a decent place that takes Medicaid folks off the street downstate.
This has been true for at least more than a decade. If you come in as medicaid, the choices are restricted... but if you can pay for a year or so... many more are available. This was also true for my mother... but I was out of country when she needed a NH initially.
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Old 08-22-2015, 08:30 PM   #180
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I read every LTC thread with interest. We don't have LTC insurance so we are in the self insurance crowd...and probably more into the hoping for good luck, roll the dice crowd than I care to admit. My one concern is that one of us could end up needing extensive LTC and impoverish the other. I am not so concerned if the last to die blows through all the assets....don't have a desire to leave a large estate.

Given my concerns, why don't I got for LTC insurance? At this point I just don't feel good about any of the plans offered.


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THIS!!!
A policy to cover the first spouse only would be very attractive to me. We just met with a Met Life rep about another matter and the topic of LTCI came up so I asked if such a policy existed and he just kinda stared into the distance. Anybody know of any way to cover the first spouse and preserve assets for surviving spouse?
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