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Old 03-12-2009, 06:59 PM   #21
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Listening to Madoff's victims is just like when Enron went down, and they interviewed the victims. Heartbreaking stories.
The Enron and Madoff victims have something in common: GREED

One would have to assume that, like the Enron folks, the madoff victims were either the dumbest of the dumb or just people whose greed easily outdistanced whatever common sense they had.

I'm sympathic in that I believe the unfortunate should be cared for in our society (example, my grandson has cerebral palsey and deserves some consideration) but these Madoff "victims" need to recognize that they have a mental problem that they need to learn to deal with.
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Old 03-12-2009, 07:27 PM   #22
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The Enron and Madoff victims have something in common: GREED

One would have to assume that, like the Enron folks, the madoff victims were either the dumbest of the dumb or just people whose greed easily outdistanced whatever common sense they had.

I'm sympathic in that I believe the unfortunate should be cared for in our society (example, my grandson has cerebral palsey and deserves some consideration) but these Madoff "victims" need to recognize that they have a mental problem that they need to learn to deal with.
I agree to some extent, 10+ years of 12% interest is quite alot. However, the guy had been around since the mid 80s. No reason to suspect he wasn't on the up-and-up. That combined with the fact that the SEC basically gave him their vote of confidence, and I can see how otherwise smart and respectable people could be deceived.
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Old 03-12-2009, 07:29 PM   #23
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Investigators say the true amount lost by investors may be between $10 billion and $17 billion and the larger estimates by Madoff include the false profits prosecutors say he generated with tens of thousands of bogus account statements cataloging steady profits."
Tell the guy whose last statement told him he had a $1MM balance that he really only lost $300K.
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Old 03-12-2009, 07:37 PM   #24
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Tell the guy whose last statement told him he had a $1MM balance that he really only lost $300K.
I hear what you are saying. To the guy who invested $300k with Madoff and got statements over the years showing it grow to $1M, it was all "real" money, even though it wasn't.
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Old 03-12-2009, 07:44 PM   #25
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I hear what you are saying. To the guy who invested $300k with Madoff and got statements over the years showing it grow to $1M, it was all "real" money, even though it wasn't.
In all reality, it falls somewhere inbetween. His true loss is the value he invested plus a reasonable interest rate.

At this point, it really doesn't matter. Whether he stole 15 billion, or 65 billion, he still destroyed 100s of lives.

I hope satin has a special place in hell reserved for that crook.
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Old 03-12-2009, 07:54 PM   #26
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One person alone cannot generate that many ficticious trades. There has to be others who were aware and aiding some of the fraud even if they didn't know the depth and size of it.
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Old 03-12-2009, 07:59 PM   #27
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One person alone cannot generate that many ficticious trades. There has to be others who were aware and aiding some of the fraud even if they didn't know the depth and size of it.
Yeah. He goes into saying his family was all proper and legit.
Maybe so but it raised my eyebrow.
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Old 03-12-2009, 08:37 PM   #28
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My impression is that his is a disappointing and unfortunate tale, but a trival, distracting soap-opera side-show to the staggeringly-huge disasters befalling global economies (unless, of course, you are personally one of his victims).
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Old 03-12-2009, 11:36 PM   #29
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I agree to some extent, 10+ years of 12% interest is quite alot. However, the guy had been around since the mid 80s. No reason to suspect he wasn't on the up-and-up. That combined with the fact that the SEC basically gave him their vote of confidence, and I can see how otherwise smart and respectable people could be deceived.
Sheeesh....... I know I'm just an ole fuddy duddy, but I wouldn't have given a nickle to someone offering that kind of yield and promising it to be "safe." I take more than my share of risks (I own ISM - see the thread) but I understand there's risk and the thrill is my reward. But to have someone offer you returns normally associated with risk but promised as safe is an absolute, positive 100% guaranteed signal it's a rip-off.

People were blinded by GREED.

Madoff should be put in a cell with a 300#, horny Bubba for the rest of his life. And the folks who let their GREED overshawdow their common sense should be made to write on the blackboard 1,000 times a day "I am a GREEDY duffer."
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Old 03-13-2009, 12:13 AM   #30
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People were blinded by GREED.
Maybe so, but they were also blinded by a professional confidence man. I have no such excuse for losses (much smaller, TG, but significant, none the less) I took in the '80s. A good "friend" convinced me that some "non-conventional" investments (think tax shelters ala Willie Nelson) were perfectly safe. He "personally guaranteed" them. Good enough for me - 20 years ago.

Here's the thing that gets me. He made money - what? maybe 8% of my investment? - I lost my total investment and the IRS gigged me for half again as much as invested. So my "friend" sold me out to make a relatively small amount of money while I lost many thousands of $. At least Madoff got most of the money! As Bogart said to Peter Lorre, "I don't mind a 'confidence man', I despise a cut-rate one."
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Old 03-13-2009, 12:55 AM   #31
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Maybe so, but they were also blinded by a professional confidence man.
All the more reason they need to step up to the blackboard and write "I am a GREEDY duffer" 1,000 times everyday. It's a tough world out there, as you and I both know!

I'm NOT unsympathetic towards the folks Madoff screwed. In fact, I'd like to think they'll be too smart and aware that GREED trumps reason to let it happen again. The first step to getting that smart and aware is admitting that GREED is one of their character flaws, just like most of the rest of us!

In the meantime, perhaps Mr Madoff could be placed on his head in a bucket of poop while he whistles "Dixie."
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Old 03-13-2009, 05:25 AM   #32
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Maybe so, but they were also blinded by a professional confidence man. I have no such excuse for losses (much smaller, TG, but significant, none the less) I took in the '80s. A good "friend" convinced me that some "non-conventional" investments (think tax shelters ala Willie Nelson) were perfectly safe. He "personally guaranteed" them. Good enough for me - 20 years ago.

Here's the thing that gets me. He made money - what? maybe 8% of my investment? - I lost my total investment and the IRS gigged me for half again as much as invested. So my "friend" sold me out to make a relatively small amount of money while I lost many thousands of $. At least Madoff got most of the money! As Bogart said to Peter Lorre, "I don't mind a 'confidence man', I despise a cut-rate one."
First, let's all agree that the mere fact that one is investing denotes greed to some degree. Of course, there are those that take it to the extreme end of the scale but we shouldn't paint every investor with the same brush.

I would suspect that the great majority of those caught up in this mess did so as you describe, Koolau. In fact, CBS News, last night, had a group interview by Katie Couric. It is, unfortunately, 6 minutes long but there is one lady who knew Madoff personally (at the 5 minute mark) and she said, "Bernie never really ever asked for money, he had to be asked."

Anyway, youbet, the other folks being interviewed run the gamut from "greedy" (in your sense of the word) to amazingly naive.
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Old 03-13-2009, 08:17 AM   #33
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Enron preached how "special" their employees were encouraging group-think psychologically (much has been written about that environment), and resulting in a blindness to what was really going on with Lay, Skilling, Fastow et al. The employees were in a "one for all and all for one mode," and, therefore, blindly unquestioning.
Madoff took in enough of his fellow Jews that he "never really ever asked for the money," but, this too, was a "special" group (in this case, Jews led by one of their own), which would encourage, again, group-think psychologically. "I'm so special that Bernie Madoff has tapped me to be his special investor" was probably what they thought at the time. The people who invested in a firm and had no idea even that their money was with Madoff were the real victims to me.
Group-think can be positive (think the Marine Corps., IBM or even the disciplines in college departments) and do much good, but in the hands of scammers it destroys lives.

And if anyone really believes that Madoff's relatives weren't in on this scam, well, I have a really right purty piece of land in Florida's Everglades to sell you...
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Old 03-13-2009, 08:33 AM   #34
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If I understand correctly, there are a number of lucky Madoff investors. That is, the ones who invested early and took out the pretend gains before the scheme crashed. For example, there may be someone who got 12% per year for years, then cashed out.

I read that the government is going to ask (require?) that they give back the gains.
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Old 03-13-2009, 08:37 AM   #35
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Madoff took in enough of his fellow Jews that he "never really ever asked for the money," but, this too, was a "special" group (in this case, Jews led by one of their own), which would encourage, again, group-think psychologically.
Really. Pray tell, what "special" group do you put yourself in? Or, more to the point, what category do you place us in?
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Old 03-13-2009, 08:43 AM   #36
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Oh, puh-leeeease.... Is that supposed to be sarcastic? I was making a pretty obvious point about how Madoff and Enron got everyone to follow them unquestioningly. Nobody should take any offense at what I said on this board. If you read the Wall Street Journal you, too, would have read the same thing more or less said by them.
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Old 03-13-2009, 11:10 AM   #37
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One of the news cast I saw said a lot of the investors can apply for the $500,000 insurance on brokerage accounts... I guess they would only get the money they put in, not the fake profits..

The charities are the ones that I think 'should have known'.... you would think the bigger ones would have had some smarter people on their boards that would have questioned that kind of steady return...

Also, I saw a 60 minute piece (I believe it was 60 minutes) on the guy who tried to turn him in many times... he said NO large bank or brokerage house had any funds invested with him as they thought there was something wrong...
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Old 03-13-2009, 11:18 AM   #38
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Markopoulos was the guy's name. However, from what I gathered watching and reading the media, there were other people from time-to-time that, also, tried to call attention to it. Just Markopoulos stayed at it with true zeal.
Personally, I was cheering when I saw this same guy testify and he crucified the SEC--which, in my opinion--he should have. Bravo! At least one person had some backbone and stood by his personal beliefs, which turned out to be right on the money.
The SEC really screwed this one up. Shame, shame, shame!
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Old 03-13-2009, 11:27 AM   #39
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One of the news cast I saw said a lot of the investors can apply for the $500,000 insurance on brokerage accounts... I guess they would only get the money they put in, not the fake profits..
Now if only I could figure out a way to claim that Schwab ran off with my IRA in October 2007...

But if Madoff wasn't a member of SIPC, how does this work?
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Old 03-13-2009, 11:42 AM   #40
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See if this helps:
SIPC May Rescue Madoff Victims : NPR
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