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Re: Managed Fund Risks
Old 11-27-2006, 02:31 PM   #21
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Re: Managed Fund Risks

and .18% for S&P 500 index?
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Re: Managed Fund Risks
Old 11-27-2006, 02:47 PM   #22
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Re: Managed Fund Risks

Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo!
REW, who admits to having 90% of his portfolio in managed funds with an ER of .40...
For the math challenged, .40% expense is twice as much as .20%. Stated another way, he pays 100% more in fees than your typical vanguard index fund investor.


0.4 does sound low...... until you compare it to 0.2
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Re: Managed Fund Risks
Old 11-27-2006, 03:20 PM   #23
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Re: Managed Fund Risks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azanon
For the math challenged, .40% expense is twice as much as .20%. Stated another way, he pays 100% more in fees than your typical vanguard index fund investor.

0.4 does sound low...... until you compare it to 0.2
For the socially challenged, he : pays $2,000 more each year on each million in his portfolio than someone paying 0.2. He probably doesn't buy those expensive watches and other 'man jewelry', so he can probably afford it, Az...
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Re: Managed Fund Risks
Old 11-27-2006, 03:32 PM   #24
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Re: Managed Fund Risks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azanon
For the math challenged, .40% expense is twice as much as .20%. Stated another way, he pays 100% more in fees than your typical vanguard index fund investor.
0.4 does sound low...... until you compare it to 0.2
I guess to each their own..........
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Re: Managed Fund Risks
Old 11-27-2006, 03:46 PM   #25
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Re: Managed Fund Risks

Quote:
Originally Posted by F M All
shouldn't that be .29% for Wellington?
.
yes, that should have read .18% and .29%.
and while, on a million dollar portfolio, it seems like much more in paid expenses,
what really counts is the Total Return. BTW, I have both funds in my 401k, but a
much smaller amount in the S&P fund - and neither are anywhere near a million dollars.
Also, what really really counts, and I pointed that out already, is that with Wellington I did not have to suffer the huge losses of 2000 thru 2002.
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Re: Managed Fund Risks
Old 11-27-2006, 03:52 PM   #26
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Re: Managed Fund Risks

Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo!
For the socially challenged, he : pays $2,000 more each year on each million in his portfolio than someone paying 0.2. He probably doesn't buy those expensive watches and other 'man jewelry', so he can probably afford it, Az...
haha. Well, that man jewelry pays its own special dividends; .... trust me on this.

To some extent, I agree with the statement, "If one can't see it, you don't have it".

I have more admiration for someone like, say, Cut-throat who has a nice car and goes on vacations, than i do someone who does and has much of nothing, but clicked "3 million" on the net worth poll.
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Re: Managed Fund Risks
Old 11-27-2006, 04:39 PM   #27
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Re: Managed Fund Risks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azanon
I have more admiration for someone like, say, Cut-throat who has a nice car and goes on vacations, than i do someone who does and has much of nothing, but clicked "3 million" on the net worth poll.
I'm sure Cut-Throat holds your admiration in the highest regard.

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Re: Managed Fund Risks
Old 11-27-2006, 05:12 PM   #28
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Re: Managed Fund Risks

Quote:
Originally Posted by bennevis
Ok let's compare the S&P500 index fund with Wellington.
Beta for Wellington is .98; for the S&P500 it's 1.0
10 year returns: Wellington 9.81%; S&P500 is 8.56%
YTD returns: Wellington 13.3%; S&P500 14.0%
fees: S&P500 1.8%, Wellington 2.9%,,,,,,,
very even stats, so far.
But here's the big difference:
Since 1999, the S&P500 fund had 3 losing years: 2000 -9.1%,
2001 -12.0%, and 2002 -22.2%, ouch!
Since 1999, Wellington had only 1 losing year: 2002 -6.9%.

I'll take the managed Wellington fund over the S&P500 fund any day.
I don't like losing years, especially 3 in a row (2000 to 2002).

same analysis could be done for the Dodge&Cox Balanced and Dodge&Cox Stock funds. If you're in them that's great, if not, too bad, as they are closed to new investors.
.
Fidelity balanced fund has some good numbers

YTD return 11.03%
10 Yr return 11%
Expense .6%
Only one losing year since 1999: 2002 -8.49%

BTW is Wellington open for new investors?
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Re: Managed Fund Risks
Old 11-27-2006, 05:43 PM   #29
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Re: Managed Fund Risks

Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo!
I'm sure Cut-Throat holds your admiration in the highest regard.
Oh I doubt that actually. Most people dont handle criticism well, and he was on the receiving end of it from me not long ago. Take your sarcasm for instance. *This to say nothing of old guys generally thinking they have nothing to learn from someone as young as me.

* This is me venting a little bit. Did the thanksgiving family thing, and i just get frustrated at not being able to teach my dad anything. Granted, he's my dad, but I do experience age discrimination frequently even in the workplace.
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Re: Managed Fund Risks
Old 11-27-2006, 06:12 PM   #30
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Re: Managed Fund Risks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azanon
* This is me venting a little bit. Did the thanksgiving family thing, and i just get frustrated at not being able to teach my dad anything. Granted, he's my dad, but I do experience age discrimination frequently even in the workplace.
I have NO IDEA what you are talking about in this part of your post.......
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Re: Managed Fund Risks
Old 11-27-2006, 06:16 PM   #31
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Re: Managed Fund Risks

Quote:
Originally Posted by FinanceDude
I have NO IDEA what you are talking about in this part of your post.......
Its an addendum, so don't sweat it. My primary thought is located above that.
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Re: Managed Fund Risks
Old 11-27-2006, 10:00 PM   #32
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Re: Managed Fund Risks

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Originally Posted by mathjak107
yes i do use eric kobren, been almost 20 years now. its not as much beating the markets every year as alot of the success has been being conservative at just the right times positioning us forthe drops. 20 years of success has taught me what you dont loose is just as important as what you gain and expense ratio's.
Ahh...isn't that what's referred to around here as MARKET TIMING?? That makes you a DMT, right?.........me too! ........It sounds alot like what Bob Brinker advocates in his Marketimer newsletter........avoid the dips.
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Re: Managed Fund Risks
Old 11-27-2006, 10:20 PM   #33
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Re: Managed Fund Risks

I own some actively managed funds, mainly in my 401k where I keep my most tax inneficient holdings. In my taxable account, I tend to prefer index funds. But I can't complain about my stellar returns from the 'managed' Vanguard Healthcare fund. BTW, it has an expense ration of 0.25 - lower than most (non vanguard) index funds!
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Re: Managed Fund Risks
Old 11-28-2006, 03:31 AM   #34
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Re: Managed Fund Risks

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazz4cash
Ahh...isn't that what's referred to around here as MARKET TIMING?? That makes you a DMT, right?.........me too! ........It sounds alot like what Bob Brinker advocates in his Marketimer newsletter........avoid the dips.

fine tuning a portfolio isnt market timing anymore than fund managers weighting a portfolio one way or another slightly key word slightly. . like steering a big ship you nudge it back in line every so ofton. rising interest rates go light on long term bonds but dont avoid bonds. thats more how eric adjusts.

trying to catch the markets near their peaks and sell out to cash hoping to get back in at the bottom, thats a dirty little market timer.

merely adjusting for the big picture or because of managment changes or fund holdings i would consider more dynamic mgmt than timing
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Re: Managed Fund Risks
Old 11-28-2006, 07:05 AM   #35
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Re: Managed Fund Risks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corporateburnout
Fidelity balanced fund has some good numbers

YTD return 11.03%
10 Yr return 11%
Expense .6%
Only one losing year since 1999: 2002 -8.49%

BTW is Wellington open for new investors?
Just to confirm this another time because the discussion confuses me. If I am looking at Morningstar that top number (11.03%) is total return after expenses, correct? So if a managed fund had the first two numbers exactly the same and the expenses were 1.2% the managed fund would have delivered the same value as the Fidelity fund but spent more to get there, correct?
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Re: Managed Fund Risks
Old 11-28-2006, 07:25 AM   #36
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Re: Managed Fund Risks

Quote:
Originally Posted by FinanceDude
I have NO IDEA what you are talking about in this part of your post.......
The "Ding-Dong Daddy" is complaining that his father wouldn't listen to his idle prattle in between admiring his own reflection and begging for money to get some estate planning done.
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Re: Managed Fund Risks
Old 11-28-2006, 07:36 AM   #37
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Re: Managed Fund Risks

Quote:
Originally Posted by donheff
Just to confirm this another time because the discussion confuses me. If I am looking at Morningstar that top number (11.03%) is total return after expenses, correct? So if a managed fund had the first two numbers exactly the same and the expenses were 1.2% the managed fund would have delivered the same value as the Fidelity fund but spent more to get there, correct?
Yes, usually any return data provided by Morningstar will be after fund expenses.

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Re: Managed Fund Risks
Old 11-28-2006, 07:50 AM   #38
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Re: Managed Fund Risks

Quote:
Originally Posted by bennevis
Ok let's compare the S&P500 index fund with Wellington.
Beta for Wellington is .98; for the S&P500 it's 1.0
10 year returns: Wellington 9.81%; S&P500 is 8.56%
YTD returns: Wellington 13.3%; S&P500 14.0%
fees: S&P500 1.8%, Wellington 2.9%,,,,,,,
very even stats, so far.
But here's the big difference:
Since 1999, the S&P500 fund had 3 losing years: 2000 -9.1%,
2001 -12.0%, and 2002 -22.2%, ouch!
Since 1999, Wellington had only 1 losing year: 2002 -6.9%.
.
I'll take the managed Wellington fund over the S&P500 fund any day.
I don't like losing years, especially 3 in a row (2000 to 2002).

same analysis could be done for the Dodge&Cox Balanced and Dodge&Cox Stock funds. If you're in them that's great, if not, too bad, as they are closed to new investors.
.
That was some good data mining. Where did you get your Beta from? It is certainly not 0.98 for Wellington if you're regressing Wellington against the S&P 500 or the TSM. It's more like 0.60. Why are you comparing Wellington to the S&P 500 anyway? They're totally different animals. If you compare Wellington to a better benchmark, 60% LV index and 40% corporate bonds, you'll find that Wellington didn't really produce much alpha.

- Alec
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Re: Managed Fund Risks
Old 11-28-2006, 09:15 AM   #39
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Re: Managed Fund Risks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azanon

I have more admiration for someone like, say, Cut-throat who has a nice car and goes on vacations, than i do someone who does and has much of nothing, but clicked "3 million" on the net worth poll.
what's the point of a nice car if it smells like fish?
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Re: Managed Fund Risks
Old 11-28-2006, 09:51 AM   #40
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Re: Managed Fund Risks

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345
The "Ding-Dong Daddy" is complaining that his father wouldn't listen to his idle prattle in between admiring his own reflection and begging for money to get some estate planning done.
I need to counsel Az a little bit...........he makes me laugh..........the last time I tried to give my dear old Dad he looked at me over his bi-focals, and said:

"Well, you're a grown man, but you'll still don't know nothin about life"..........

He's always good for a few of those..........
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