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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement
Old 09-01-2006, 08:15 AM   #21
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement

Good post MacDaddy. I have known quite a few teachers like your SO. They make a HUGE difference in many lives. There are plenty of others who become embittered and just put in time having a negative effect on other kids' lives. Too bad there isn't a simple, effective way to encourage the negativists to move on and encourage the best to stay.
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement
Old 09-01-2006, 08:34 AM   #22
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement

I have a buddy who's a teacher, and the way he likes to twist it around is that he's out of work and doesn't get paid 3 months of the year! Or, if he chooses, he can get paid those 3 months, but then takes a cut in the paycheck. He makes the same that I do, lower $50K range. However, I HAVE to work 12 months out of the year.

It comes out the same in the end. He's getting paid $50+K per year. If he takes the 12 months worth of paychecks, each check would come out to about what my paycheck is. Or he can take 9 months worth of paychecks that are inflated, but in the end it comes out the same.

Funny how those of us on the outside looking in view it as getting 3 months off, but those on the inside looking out view it as being out of work for 3 months! :
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement
Old 09-01-2006, 08:44 AM   #23
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
I have a lot of friends that were school teachers and most retired at age 55 and are doing very well because of their pensions and medical care. I hung out with these guys for the last 25 years. They always spent more money than me and did not have to save for retirement. And they fished all summer, while I was at work! I think one of the biggest myths in America is that school teachers are paid poorly. Try retiring in Corporate America today with those benefits!
CT, for once I can finally say I agree with you 100%

Many people forget to add the value of those benefits and the fact they are on a 9 month schedule into the equation when considering teaching pay.

My brother in law is a teacher here at the local high school. With a PhD 13 years of experience he brings in about 90K for 8 months of work when you factor in the all the vacations. Has a COLA'd pension and pays nothing for his health insurance.

Hmmmm may explain why my property taxes are so high

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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement
Old 09-01-2006, 08:44 AM   #24
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement

Quote:
Originally Posted by macdaddy
For the time that she (and I) put in, $56k seems on the low end. But to someone else in the exact same job, who puts in the minimum required, $56k a year broken down on an hourly basis would be great ($30/hour). So maybe some teachers are overpaid, and some underpaid - teachers in the same jobs, with the same salaries, but differing levels of committment. I don't know if it's fair to let the market set the absolute prices for these things. It seems like what they do now is try to pay a little above a comfortable annual salary, and then try to attract the people who will pour their heart into it. That seems like a good strategy to me.
I agree. Teaching is a calling. Increasing the salary is not going to attract better teachers. The good teachers are not into it for the money or summers off.

By the way my friend with the MBA who left the corporate world to teach high school loves the job and puts in a lot of extra time with the student including heading up their Marketing club. But he loves those summers off too.

Those teachers who whine because of what they consider undercompensation compared to the corporate world should just quit whining and get a job in the corporate world.
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement
Old 09-01-2006, 09:38 AM   #25
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement

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Originally Posted by Hydroman
The good teachers are not into it for the money or summers off.
Perhaps a bit of a hasty generalization macdaddy.* This might be true sometimes, but not always.* For example,* DW, to the best of my knowledge based on awards received, inputs from parents, etc., was an excellent teacher.* Yet she did consider the money and benefits important when making her career decision because we both grew up in very modest circumstances. We began married life with a lot of college debt and needed decent paying jobs.

Perhaps what we could say is that good teachers are not into it primarily for the money or summers off.* **

Even three years into retirement, DW is facinated at how some K-12 public sector teachers consider themselves underpaid.* Starting pay was a tad on the low side, but once she had a decade or so of seniority coupled with her masters degree + 60 additional graduate hours, the compensation package was pretty darn competitive.* She has commented that her associates who whined the loudest seemed to be those that didn't really like the career and might have been unhappy at any pay level.

One of the other advantages to a teaching career not mentioned yet is that it is one of the few professional careers where you are backed by powerful unions.* The local DW belonged to had some talented folks in leadership positions and they really brought home the bacon.* I managed in industries with IAM, Steel Workers and Teamsters and dealt with union matters on a daily basis as well as participating in negotiations.* I never felt those unions were as impactful as DW's.* In her case, her union really had its act together.

My opinion is that pay and benefits are important in attracting qualified people to the teaching field.* In our area, pay and benefits must be adequate because when openings are posted, many qualified, knowledgible people apply.* Market forces seem to be working.

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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement
Old 09-01-2006, 10:25 AM   #26
 
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement

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Originally Posted by saluki9
CT, for once I can finally say I agree with you 100%
Well of course you agree with me, because this is one of the knee-jerk right-wing opinions. I never have said all the right wing ideas were wrong - just about 95% of them are.
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement
Old 09-01-2006, 10:52 AM   #27
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement

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Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
Well of course you agree with me, because this is one of the knee-jerk right-wing opinions. I never have said all the right wing ideas were wrong - just about 95% of them are.
Good one CT, don't let em make you change your colors.
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement
Old 09-01-2006, 10:25 PM   #28
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement

The teachers I know (including my sister) think the money is decent and pension is great, but the disparity comes in the level of hardship required because of all the administrative crap they have to do that is not really teaching and low marginal esteem society has for public school teachers. We really don't give them the tools they need to deal with all the extraneous problems like dangerous conditions, poverty, kids that are hungary, not ready for school, etc. etc.

If you teach in an area that has an abundance of these problems and/or high cost of living, the pay seems much less.
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement
Old 09-02-2006, 01:05 AM   #29
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement

Response to the comment about the teaching profession having strong union representation. The WEA (WA Educ Assoc) doesn't hesitate to use children as a marketing tactic in their politicing. No one is going to attack or question spending more money on the children/students. A pretty powerful tool and they don't hesitate to use it. Most teachers I know complain about their compensation and the hours that they work. Interestingly, most have never worked full time in the private sector - going straight from college to teaching.
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement
Old 09-02-2006, 01:46 AM   #30
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement

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Originally Posted by Dog
Most teachers I know complain about their compensation and the hours that they work.
So do other professions (even doctors, atheles) cry for higher pay and less work - it's part of human nature.
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement
Old 09-04-2006, 09:40 AM   #31
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement

i wont say teachers have it easy here in nyc but for a job where you work about 6 months out of a year with all the time off the pay is great and the benefits amazing.if most of us only worked 6 months out of the year our incomes would be a far cry from theirs.i dont feel sorry for them at all!
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement
Old 09-04-2006, 10:18 AM   #32
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement

My, but some teachers have an amazing amount of time off! My son teaches public school in Eastern MA, where he has 9 weeks off in summer and 3.5 weeks at other times of year: ~3 months off in total. He's paid $45k in his 6th year of teaching, and is eligible for his pension (60% of pay) after 27 years of service.
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement
Old 09-04-2006, 10:28 AM   #33
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement

my buddy retired from the new york city board of ed.he gets 75k a year in pension and fully paid medical...whats that worth ?
most teachers complain and complain but nobody ever leaves.

i wonder how many teachers would give up their 9 to 3 for a 9 to 5+ job and their 3 to 6 months of time off for 2 weeks vacation .
as well as give up their retirement benefits for a "you get whatever you can save deal " like the rest of the working stiffs like us
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement
Old 09-04-2006, 10:33 AM   #34
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement

astro lets start a new topic" teachers who complain" ha ha
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement
Old 09-04-2006, 12:45 PM   #35
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement

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Originally Posted by mathjak107
most teachers complain and complain but nobody ever leaves.

i wonder how many teachers would give up their 9 to 3 for a 9 to 5+ job and their 3 to 6 months of time off for 2 weeks vacation .
Like most government workers, they complain but will stay unless they can get a better offer (most likely from another government agency or school system).
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement
Old 09-04-2006, 01:47 PM   #36
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement

yep problem is most teachers and gov't workers have not worked long enough in private industry to see what it is they really have and all the benefits.when we had the transit strike in nyc these transit workers had not a clue what the benefits they had were worth in private sector..it was sickening seeing them shutting our city down because it wasnt enough.
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement
Old 09-05-2006, 02:19 PM   #37
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement

No one has mentioned tenure, which is probably one of the biggest benefits (and also the cause of some teachers "just putting in time" after several years of teaching). When my sister was teaching, tenure was given after just two years in the public schools. Is it still that way?
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement
Old 09-05-2006, 04:26 PM   #38
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement

Tenure policies depends on the school. My son got tenure after 3 years of middle school teaching, but it's not automatic--2 young teachers who started with him didn't get tenure. During the 4 years my daughter taught, a couple of people also didn't get tenure--so I have to assume it isn't uncommon.

Tenure was so unimportant to my son that he never mentioned it for nearly a year despite an average of two conversations a week--and even then it was only because I asked him how long until he'd be up for tenure!

At the college where my husband teaches, it takes 6 years--and you have to pass a 3-year review mid-way. If you don't pass, you're out of the dept--this happened to one of the 2 new profs hired during or jsut before my husband went there. Thse who don't pass go to another school (or to private industry, as was the case here) and start over.

Note that sometimes profs go to another school for other reasons, but they still have to start over for tenure. For example, 2 of DH's colleagues are married to each other and moved to his school from another state. They had to start their 6 years from scratch, even though they were hired as Associate Professors.
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement
Old 09-05-2006, 04:54 PM   #39
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement

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Originally Posted by astromeria
Tenure policies depends on the school. My son got tenure after 3 years of middle school teaching, but it's not automatic--2 young teachers who started with him didn't get tenure. During the 4 years my daughter taught, a couple of people also didn't get tenure--so I have to assume it isn't uncommon.
Were those individuals who didn't get tenure rehired by the school to try again, or were they told they would never get tenure at that school?

Quote:
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Tenure was so unimportant to my son that he never mentioned it
That is somewhat surprising, since there is a significant value to having a guaranteed job for life (or as long as you want it).
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement
Old 09-05-2006, 05:13 PM   #40
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Re: Many ARE saving enough for retirement

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Were those individuals who didn't get tenure rehired by the school to try again, or were they told they would never get tenure at that school?
I don't know--but I do know of those who didn't get tenure, they all left the schools and some left teaching entirely. Ya gotta earn tenure--your colleagues have to think you've got the right stuff as well as the dept chair, dean/principal of your school--and at college, the members of that year's tenure committee (that would include faculty and staff from outside your dept). Someone in my husband's department was denied promotion to full Professor, and he's still there. He's an awesome teacher and contributor to the college, and a wonderful human being and ppular with students and faculty, but the tenure committee felt that his scholarly research has been a bit thin of late. He will try again--but he's long since tenured.

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That is somewhat surprising, since there is a significant value to having a guaranteed job for life (or as long as you want it).
My son is idealistic. Of course, he's still under 30 Seriously though, permanent employment was not part of the appeal for him--although the summer vacation and pension were. As an experienced camp counselor/instructor, he knew that teaching was for him.
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