Market Return

What you also haven't explained is how our potential early retiree is going to come up with 2.5 times as much retirement stash unless it's to continue working until retirement is no longer early.

The desire for something does not create the means of achieving it. Retiring really early may turn out to be similar to marrying a very beautiful woman. Not something that every ordinary guy who does well at college, keeps clean and lives really, really cheaply will necessarily be able to do.

"If wishes were horses, beggars would ride."

M
 
If you are thinking perhaps that I am somewhat out of my gourd, it is a little similar to a method mentioned by the Coffee House invester in one of their "portfolio ponderings" articles a few weeks ago.  Not to say they may be a bit daft, too ;).
No, I don't think you're out of your gourd. Actually my planning is based on about 40 years, and I found your comment interesting because I just happen to use 2.5% (plus inflation) as a basis for my plan. I hope for better but plan for around 2.5%. But I arrived at that figure in an entirely different manner.
 
Re: Market Return (whatever THAT is)

In other words, a 40 year lifespan would always produce a 2.5% withdrawal rate, right? Or am I missing something?
What do you do in the 41st year?

My spouse claims to know my life expectancy. Until she shares that with me (I don't want to know), I'm going to avoid spending principle.
 
Hey Nords.............I would watch out for ground glass
in the sugar bowl also :)

John Galt
 
More on life expectancies.

We saw a PBS special a while back on Alzheimer's.

Clinicians claim that a flawless indicator of early-stage Alzheimers, but less intrusive than a cerebral autopsy, is the loss of the ability to hear a spoken word and to then verbally spell it backwards.

Passing those pop quizzes worries me more than the ground glass...
 
Re: More on life expectancies.

Clinicians claim that a flawless indicator of early-stage Alzheimers, but less intrusive than a cerebral autopsy, is the loss of the ability to hear a spoken word and to then verbally spell it backwards.

I can't even spell frontwards, so I would fail the test now. I saw today I have been spelling deductible as deductable every time.
 
>>Clinicians claim that a flawless indicator of early-stage Alzheimers, but less intrusive than a cerebral autopsy, is the loss of the ability to hear a spoken word and to then verbally spell it backwards.

I Don't get it...if you can't hear it, how are you supposed to spell it backwards? Does that mean all deaf people have Alzheimers? :confused:
 
Quotes from Hyperborea
I understand that it's obvious - that's why I asked it since you seemed to be ignoring this in your suggestion to basically save up all you need for retirement and put it somewhere that you left unspecified.
In my example of dividing savings by years of survival I think the favored investment would probably be inflation protected securities. My portfolio is currently being reorganized from a traditional broker's account and I am weighting it that way to a degree. But I had hoped to point out as well that there are alternate methods to predict future returns without using past performance as the primary indicator. And that there may be externalities to consider before assuming that past performance is a shoe in for future returns.


In another thread on this board you were also suggesting bank accounts because they had a (marginally) longer history of usage by "common people" than stocks. If history of usage is important then precious metals and goats win by thousands of years. Where were you suggesting to put this very large sum of money that has a "long enough" history of usage by "common people"?
Again I think I had hoped to point out or discuss that past returns are not based on a fixed set of variables, but have had a changing face of eras, one of which would be a relatively recent influx of money from the private investor into equites. So my personal confidence in past performance predicting future returns is probably less than the confidence numbers used by many calculators that are based on statistics only. Borrowing/lending institutions such as banks and treasuries probably have less volitility from speculation and emotion, but also by their nature and history of investor base, a more predictable return from past performance. But certainly not without risk.

There's another factor in your "plan" that you've left unspecified. What you also haven't explained is how our potential early retiree is going to come up with 2.5 times as much retirement stash unless it's to continue working until retirement is no longer early.
I certainly am offering nothing beyond discussion. We all have to come up with our own method of estimating returns. Risk and return will always be intrinsically related. There will be some who take risks and will be rewarded and others who will be disappointed. The method of dividing savings by years of retirement and investing in inflation protected securities is a very low risk approach. It also means that many will have to work more years. The opposite is high yield, high risk investments. The middle ground is a conservative diverse portofolio. But assuming that past returns will insure this method beyond doubt is ignoring risk. I think that inflation is a very high risk for any one with a long retirement and no corporate pension. And that if we depend only on the numbers to identify risk we're missing some important elements of risk. The middle ground we pick in our risk assessment is a personal choice.

I have slightly different opinions on these issues, but also don't know everything (though am a bit stubborn on a few). It helps to discuss and defend my own thoughts. Thanks for the discussion.
 
In my example of dividing savings by years of survival I think the favored investment would probably be inflation protected securities.  My portfolio is currently being reorganized from a traditional broker's account and I am weighting it that way to a degree.
<snip>
I think that inflation is a very high risk for any one with a long retirement and no corporate pension.

So, you are going to rely on the US government to calculate the inflation amount and give you what they think inflation was? We've had a few discussions about that here and I'm not sure that I would trust the US inflation measure to any great extent. There is tremendous incentive (both from a TIPs and a SS perspective at least) to under report it. There is tremendous pressure to use increased utility in the inflation measure (i.e. your medication is more effective therefore it is cheaper even if it is more expensive). TIPs might make sense for a small portion of one's portfolio but a heavy TIPs portfolio seems very risky to me. It might not jiggle every day like the market does but over the long run it looks a lot scarier.
 
TIPs might make sense for a small portion of one's portfolio but a heavy TIPs portfolio seems very risky to me.  It might not jiggle every day like the market does but over the long run it looks a lot scarier.
The only guarantee you'll get from the stock market is that it will always "jiggle."   There is no guarantee that it'll go up in the long term, much less keep up with inflation.   If you don't believe me, ask anybody who invested in the Japanese market over the last 20 years.

TIPS are about the safest investment available.   If the market really believed the stuff about the BLS under-reporting inflation, you can rest assured that the price of TIPS would reflect that concern, and you'd be compensated accordingly.
 
The only guarantee you'll get from the stock market is that it will always "jiggle."   There is no guarantee that it'll go up in the long term, much less keep up with inflation.   If you don't believe me, ask anybody who invested in the Japanese market over the last 20 years.

Yes, that is definitely a possibility with investing in a single country as many (most?) US investors do. Have at least a look at the Sharpe papers and the "world market" portfolio. It's going to be a pretty grim future if all markets are down and stay down for 20 years. How well do you think a TIPs heavy portfolio will fare in such an environment as you suggest - the Japanese and the Chinese will be turning in their US treasuries and the dollar will plummet and "official" inflation will be negative.
 
How well do you think a TIPs heavy portfolio will fare in such an environment as you suggest - the Japanese and the Chinese will be turning in their US treasuries and the dollar will plummet and "official" inflation will be negative.
I'm not sure I follow your deflation prediction. If the dollar weakens, imports will be more expensive, which will fuel inflation. Our massive debt means more treasuries will be issued, which will also fuel inflation. I agree that we're likely to see both a decreased demand for US treasuries and an increased supply. That means treasury prices are likely to fall and yields to rise.

For somebody like me, who plans to hold their TIPS to maturity, that means my return is guaranteed to be at least 2 points above inflation, and likely much higher as I reinvest interest and DCA into new cheaper TIPS.

As far as stocks go, I shoot for 60% US and 40% int'l, just like the world markets capitalization suggest I should.
 
I'm not sure I follow your deflation prediction.

If we take your scenario that world equity markets were down for 20 years in some sort of end of the world scenario then it is likely that unemployment both in the US and elsewhere is very high leading to very low demand and that is one cause of deflation (oversupply or underdemand).  The Japanese and Chinese governments will want to convert those US treasuries to prop up their own economies (and stop propping up the US one as they do now) and that will further drive down the dollar.  That might sound like a good thing for manufacturing exporters but remember that you were postulating that all markets (and by extension economies) were down (20 years down) so nobody wants to buy and if they do they'll likely buy at home (perhaps future foreign versions of the Hawley-Smoot Tariff Act).  Presto-chango, your 20 year world markets down scenario brings just what I said.  It may also bring US government defaults on credit obligations.

As far as stocks go, I shoot for 60% US and 40% int'l, just like the world markets capitalization suggest I should.

That's close but in inverse proportions. Depending on how much you've got there that's also a long way from stashing it in a bank account or putting it under your mattress.
 
If we take your scenario that world equity markets were down for 20 years...
Now we're just misinterpreting one another. When people talk about stocks for the long run, they're almost always talking about the US market, and their "proof" is the US market's performance over the last 120 years or so.

I'm not sure what would cause the markets of the entire world to go down over the long-term, unless we had a large decrease in working-age population world-wide. That would be scary, and all invesment classes would suffer, but the resulting deflation would also cause prices to drop, so you'd still have a predictable outcome for TIPS -- 2 points above the rate of inflation/deflation. In other words, worst case is that your principal is preserved in terms of real dollars, and you still get the real rate of return.

Regarding the world's allocation of stock market capital, I believe it was close to 50/50 a couple of years ago, and then the US share increased since then, but if you factor in the falling dollar, who knows where we are. 50/50, 40/60, 60/40 all make more sense than 100% US to me.
 
>>Clinicians claim that a flawless indicator of early-stage Alzheimers, but less intrusive than a cerebral autopsy, is the loss of the ability to hear a spoken word and to then verbally spell it backwards.

I Don't get it...if you can't hear it, how are you supposed to spell it backwards? Does that mean all deaf people have Alzheimers?  :confused:

We played a lot of the board game Cranium this weekend with the kids, and they have this as one of the tasks. It is surprisingly difficult (you do in fact hear the word spoken before you have to spell it backwards! ::)) but it requires some new neural circuitry. I suppose any of us with Alzheimers in the family could do worse than to practice this one!

ESRBob
 
Re: Market Return (whatever THAT is)

What do you do in the 41st year?

My spouse claims to know my life expectancy.  Until she shares that with me (I don't want to know), I'm going to avoid spending principle.
I don't think Roger was claiming that anyone could predict life expectancy, nor was he promoting a spend-down to zero. I believe he was just putting forth a very simple formula which would produce a conservative withdrawal rate relative to FIRECalc (2% for 50 years, 2.5% for 40 years, 5% for 20 years, etc.). I'm sure he will correct me if I'm wrong.
 
So, you are going to rely on the US government to calculate the inflation amount and give you what they think inflation was?

Hyperborea is right to point out that one of the risks of owning TIPS is that the government will misreport the inflation numbers. This is not a risk unique to TIPS, however. Most SWR studies call for the retiree to make adjustments in his spending level to reflect the effects of inflation. The "safe" take-out numbers presume that these adjustments will be made pursuant to government inflation numbers. In the event that the government inflation numbers indeed prove to be wrong, the numbers reported by the SWR studies will be wrong too.

Say that the government says we are experiencing 3 percent inflation, and the true inflation rate is 6 percent. In that event, the investor using SWR research will be increasing his spending by only 3 percent each year and with each year he will be purchasing fewer and fewer goods and services than the amount he needs to purchase to maintain his desired lifestyle. In the event that he begins to take a larger inflation adjustment to maintain his desired lifestyle, he will be taking a larger withdrawal than is permitted by the logic of the SWR studies.

I see the concern over government misreporting of inflation as a valid one. I question whether it is a reason for favoring stocks over TIPS.
 
that's also a long way from stashing it in a bank account or putting it under your mattress.

I don't think that it is reasonable to assess the merits of stock investing at today's prices by making a comparison to the absurd option of "putting it under your mattress." When comparisons are made to asset classes that brain-alive early retirees would more likely elect for themselves, the comparison yields a very different result.

TIPS today provide a higher SWR than S&P stocks, if you use the approach to SWR analysis used by William Bernstein in "The Four Pillars of Investing" (Bernstein makes an adjustment for changes in valuation levels). Stocks are a sound investment for many aspiring early retirees. Like all other investment classes, however, stocks have their pros and cons.

Stocks generally do a good job of providing long-term growth potential. They are too volatile an investment class to offer a high SWR at times of high valuation, however. At times of high valuation, early retirees with a concern for safety should be checking out TIPS and trying to assemble the overall portfolio that best serves their need for a particular combination of growth and safety.
 
Hey I took that "early stage Alzheimers test".
My granddaughter called me on the phone and when she told me who it was, I was able to spell her name
backwards with no difficulty. Guess I'm okay for now.
BTW, her name is Hannah :)

Re. stashing cash in your mattress, my Dad might as well be doing that. He lets it lay in his checking account
or buys 1 year CDs because he "might not be alive next year". Banks must really love these old people. No point in discussing any of this though.
Add money to politics and religion as touchy areas
to get into with your relatives (or anyone for that matter).

John Galt
 
Spelling backwards

I Don't get it...if you can't hear it, how are you supposed to spell it backwards? Does that mean all deaf people have Alzheimers?  :confused:
Good question, but gimme a break.

It doesn't have anything to do with eardrums or cochlea but rather the way the brain cells recognize the noise as a word and then process it to turn phenomes into letters. They're not sure where the process breaks down but it's not just about looking at a printed word and copying it down in reverse.

Or maybe it has to be verbal because of the dyslexia issue!
 
There's a thread in the SWR section titled "Scott Burns: Staying Safe in Retirement." The Scott Burns article refers to a September/October 2004 article by Financial Analysts Journal Editor Rob Arnott. Here's a link to a PDF copy of the Arnott article (it is the one titled "Sustainable Spending in a Lower Return World.")

http://www.aimrpubs.org/faj/home.html
   
Juicy Arnott Quote #1: ““Relative to current yields on TIPS, the risk premium on stocks is dismayingly small (probably less than 1 percent at this writing).”

Juicy Arnott Quote #2: “Now, consider the taxable investor. Historical real returns since WWII for a 60/40 balanced portfolio have averaged 3.3 percent. When we strip out the effects of falling yields and rising valuation levels, that return falls to 1.9 percent. Given today’s low yields, we cannot reasonably expect more. Because we are taxed on both our real return and the inflation component of our return, a reasonable expectation for the after-tax real return on a 60/40 portfolio is fairly close to zero.”

Juicy Arnott Quote #3: “The arithmetic for taxable investors is remarkably simple if the after-tax return on a portfolio is roughly zero. If a retiree wants to maintain a lifestyle costing $40,000 a year, adjusted for inflation, for a life expectancy of 25 years, he or she will need $1 million.”

The formula being used by Financial Analysts Journal Editor Arnott is not too far off from the formula proposed earlier in this thread by our own RogerR.
 
I know very little about Rob Arnott, but can tell just from the "quotes" he is a pretty sharp guy. I think I begin to see my problem with Bob Brinker and Suze Orman
(other than my chronic galloping egomania :) )

These people are offering financial advice to the lower end of the IQ scale (regardless of their finances).
Bob and Suze may not be as clueless as they appear,
but have just tailored their nonsensical pontifications
to the reality TV crowd, i.e. folks who would not
recognize hucksterism if it fell in their soup.

John Galt
 
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