chinaco
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2007
- Messages
- 5,072
A little setup first.
The Hedge Fund Industry stood at $2.68 T in 3Q 2007. That is a lot of wealth. The customers of the hedge funds are the extremely wealthy... the price of entry is usually high and people are warned of the risk that they could have substantial losses due to the employment of maximum leverage, derivatives, etc.
They can be self fulfilling in that they ruin the normal markets and people are driven to them to try to get some sort of return if the normal markets become less viable.
A few considerations
A large part of the stock and bond market is owned by middle class people saving for retirement.
We are down stream consumers in other markets (consumer markets/comm) like fuel. Futures were created to help the producer of commodities and the buyer (businesses that produce something) to set prices so they were not ruined by speculative price swings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futures_market
The futures market for corn was setup to enable a stable market between corn producer and corn product manufacturers. How does a financial entity that is engaged in neither throwing money into the market with no abandon help that market?
Stock markets - This was created to allow capital to be raised by business to form enterprise. In other words go long. Bond markets similar.
Here are questions.
If so, how should it be dealt with? I am not for banning it. Although on the commodities side it could be banned.
It seems that these entities have figured out a way to manipulate and consequently disrupt the market mechanisms (established for reasons other than short-term manipulation and speculation).
Can we the normal retirement investors (long investors) and can businesses be stable with this going on... especially if it increases?
What do you think? Are we being scr3wed by these entities? Is it time to shut them down or contain them?
Will we be able to [effectively] save for retirement if something is not done. And we could have huge inflationary price hikes (consumer goods) that are not due to supply demand of the actual products but the speculative demand for the derivatives that were created to allow business to flourish.
I am sure the hedge fund industry would have us believe that they are bottom feeders that clean up things... but like anything in nature, if they grow big enough they can begin doing harm.
The Hedge Fund Industry stood at $2.68 T in 3Q 2007. That is a lot of wealth. The customers of the hedge funds are the extremely wealthy... the price of entry is usually high and people are warned of the risk that they could have substantial losses due to the employment of maximum leverage, derivatives, etc.
They can be self fulfilling in that they ruin the normal markets and people are driven to them to try to get some sort of return if the normal markets become less viable.
A few considerations
- That amount of money move the markets by itself
- They are less about going long on investments, but instead speculate and employ short-term techniques that magnify the money they use (massive leverage and derivatives).
A large part of the stock and bond market is owned by middle class people saving for retirement.
We are down stream consumers in other markets (consumer markets/comm) like fuel. Futures were created to help the producer of commodities and the buyer (businesses that produce something) to set prices so they were not ruined by speculative price swings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futures_market
Of course when bubbles begin to form on the way up... financial companies find ways to feed into it. An example would be the run up in commodities and financial companies creating new consumer mutual funds to get in on the action. IT seems to me that even pension funds were getting in on the action of the commodities bubble.Gluts and shortages of these products caused chaotic fluctuations in price, and this led to the development of a market enabling grain merchants, processors, and agriculture companies to trade in "to arrive" or "cash forward" contracts to insulate them from the risk of adverse price change and enable them to hedge.
The futures market for corn was setup to enable a stable market between corn producer and corn product manufacturers. How does a financial entity that is engaged in neither throwing money into the market with no abandon help that market?
Stock markets - This was created to allow capital to be raised by business to form enterprise. In other words go long. Bond markets similar.
Here are questions.
- Commodities Markets (specifically non-financial products). Are hedge funds and certain other financial entities destabilizing those market... ultimately leading to business failure and economic instability.
- Securities Markets - Are hedge funds and certain other financial entities destabilizing the stock and bonds markets and causing problems for actual long investors that create the capital markets so business can thrive.
If so, how should it be dealt with? I am not for banning it. Although on the commodities side it could be banned.
- For example. If you are in the business that produces or consume crude oil... buy away. If hedge funds (and other non-oil producing entities) speulate, they will be fined and lose your fund will be closed if caught trading in instruments related to oil.
- Another approach is to take the profit out of speculation. Cap gains for companies not involved in producing or selling oil (any commodities) will pay a cap gains tax of 75 or 80% (something large).
It seems that these entities have figured out a way to manipulate and consequently disrupt the market mechanisms (established for reasons other than short-term manipulation and speculation).
Can we the normal retirement investors (long investors) and can businesses be stable with this going on... especially if it increases?
What do you think? Are we being scr3wed by these entities? Is it time to shut them down or contain them?
Will we be able to [effectively] save for retirement if something is not done. And we could have huge inflationary price hikes (consumer goods) that are not due to supply demand of the actual products but the speculative demand for the derivatives that were created to allow business to flourish.
I am sure the hedge fund industry would have us believe that they are bottom feeders that clean up things... but like anything in nature, if they grow big enough they can begin doing harm.