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Old 09-28-2011, 05:52 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Where have these billions been taken from promised benefits? I guess the only thing I'm aware of is high earners who had to take a % of their retirement based on PBGC rules (UAL pilots come to mind).

If you are talking changes to future earned benefits, that's different - those are not 'retirees'.

-ERD50
Shareholders and executives. Replacement of defined benefit pension plans with 401ks was the start of it, then the reduction or removal of healthcare. The latter has been an issue for those retired and those still working. There is a new book out about this.

Ellen Schultz Interview, Retirement Heist, Employee Pensions - Author Speaks - AARP Bulletin
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Old 09-28-2011, 06:09 PM   #22
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In answer to:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50
Where have these billions been taken from promised benefits? I guess the only thing I'm aware of is high earners who had to take a % of their retirement based on PBGC rules (UAL pilots come to mind).

If you are talking changes to future earned benefits, that's different - those are not 'retirees'.

-ERD50
... you replied:

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Originally Posted by nun View Post
Shareholders and executives. Replacement of defined benefit pension plans with 401ks was the start of it, then the reduction or removal of healthcare. The latter has been an issue for those retired and those still working. ...
But your statement was (bold/underline added):


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Originally Posted by nun View Post
I'd like to see a coalition between military, federal, state and private sector retirees to protect their promised retirement benefits. Billions have been taken from state and private sector benefits already, it's no surprise that the military are next.
Again - I don't think the retirees have had billions taken.

If you are saying current employees need to try to protect future benefits, well OK, but that's gonna be tough. There is world-wide competition now, where is the power to negotiate this going to come from?

Imagine that you are starting a business, and decide to pay all these benefits. Can you do it and be competitive? And FWIW, I actually disagree that these 'promises' of future benefits are a good thing. Promises can be (and are) broken. Ask those UAL employees if they would have preferred to have the money in a 401K, or the lower % they got after the companay went through bankruptcy.

Human Toll of a Pension Default

Quote:
Ellen Saracini lost her husband, United Airlines Capt. Victor J. Saracini, when his Flight 175 crashed into the World Trade Center on Sept. 11, 2001. Now she stands to lose more than half of her widow's pension in a very different kind of crash -- United's default of its $9 billion pension obligations. ....

The Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp. (PBGC), the federal insurance program that faces its own solvency crisis and is to take over the United pensions, ensures a maximum of $45,000 a year in benefits for those who retired at 65, but considerably less for those who retired younger -- much as Social Security pays less to early retirees. This particularly hurts pilots, whom the law requires to retire from major airlines at 60 and who now collect as much as $125,000 a year in pensions, depending on length of service. The PBGC's maximum coverage for those who retire at 60 is $28,000 -- a cut of 50 to 75 percent for pilots. Saracini will receive even less because her husband was 51 when he was killed.
-ERD50
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Old 09-28-2011, 06:52 PM   #23
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Ellen Saracini lost her husband, United Airlines Capt. Victor J. Saracini, when his Flight 175 crashed into the World Trade Center on Sept. 11, 2001. Now she stands to lose more than half of her widow's pension in a very different kind of crash -- United's default of its $9 billion pension obligations. ....

The Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp. (PBGC), the federal insurance program that faces its own solvency crisis and is to take over the United pensions, ensures a maximum of $45,000 a year in benefits for those who retired at 65, but considerably less for those who retired younger -- much as Social Security pays less to early retirees. This particularly hurts pilots, whom the law requires to retire from major airlines at 60 and who now collect as much as $125,000 a year in pensions, depending on length of service. The PBGC's maximum coverage for those who retire at 60 is $28,000 -- a cut of 50 to 75 percent for pilots. Saracini will receive even less because her husband was 51 when he was killed.


I don't feel sorry for her at all. In all the post 9-11 knee-jerk reactions, the families of each 9-11 victim were given $1,000,000 from the US taxpayers. IMO, that's what life insurance is for, not the gov't.
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Old 09-28-2011, 07:01 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
In answer to: ... you replied:



But your statement was (bold/underline added):




Again - I don't think the retirees have had billions taken.




-ERD50
Many in retirement have seen health benefits reduced or removed. COLAs on pensions are also often targeted. But I agree that the biggest problems exist for current employees who see benefits continually reduced and have had pension accounts raided by corporations.

The raiding of pensions has happened at may successful corporations, what's their excuse?
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Old 09-28-2011, 07:06 PM   #25
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I don't feel sorry for her at all. In all the post 9-11 knee-jerk reactions, the families of each 9-11 victim were given $1,000,000 from the US taxpayers. IMO, that's what life insurance is for, not the gov't.
Beware of exclusion clauses. Exclusion clauses are typically written to exclude war and acts of terrorism. Definitions of terrorism can vary, but the standard definition specifies that a terrorist act is one that results in at least $25 million in property damage, or kills or seriously injures at least 50 people. In addition, any attack that employs nuclear, chemical or biological weapons is classified as a terrorist attack. Acts of cyberterrorism are also generally excluded. Exclusions may vary by state.

Where terrorism coverage is available, it is generally backstopped by a US federal government reinsurance program.
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Old 09-28-2011, 07:06 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeNFO View Post


I don't feel sorry for her at all. In all the post 9-11 knee-jerk reactions, the families of each 9-11 victim were given $1,000,000 from the US taxpayers. IMO, that's what life insurance is for, not the gov't.
I feel sorry for her in that her husband was murdered.

In reading ERD50s post, I took the point to be that Ms Saracini wasn't well served by her husband's defined benefit plan, that she would have been better off, along with a lot of other folks with failed pension plans, if her husband's funds had been in a 401K.

I agree that the USG (i.e. you and I) shouldn't have paid victims $1 million each. But, just for "grins" --the $1million from the USG still didn't put her ahead, if we're gonna do the morbid math. At a 4% WD, that's $40K per year. Even with the govt payment, she would probably have been better off if he'd instead had (and used) a 401K plan, and gotten average investment results.
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Old 09-28-2011, 08:24 PM   #27
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I feel sorry for her in that her husband was murdered.

In reading ERD50s post, I took the point to be that Ms Saracini wasn't well served by her husband's defined benefit plan, that she would have been better off, along with a lot of other folks with failed pension plans, if her husband's funds had been in a 401K.
Yes, that is exactly what I meant - thank you.

Quote:
I agree that the USG (i.e. you and I) shouldn't have paid victims $1 million each. But, just for "grins" --the $1million from the USG still didn't put her ahead, if we're gonna do the morbid math. At a 4% WD, that's $40K per year. Even with the govt payment, she would probably have been better off if he'd instead had (and used) a 401K plan, and gotten average investment results.
Interesting (and valid) point.

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Many in retirement have seen health benefits reduced or removed. COLAs on pensions are also often targeted. But I agree that the biggest problems exist for current employees who see benefits continually reduced and have had pension accounts raided by corporations.
I don't know, I was under the impression that very little of this has happened to people already in retirment. Has it happened to the tune of billions? References please.

To the extent that it does happen, it goes to my point that I don't want promises. Give me the money and let me plan for my future (admittedly, some of this may need to be a 'forced' plan, as many will do the grasshopper/ant thing).


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Originally Posted by nun View Post
The raiding of pensions has happened at may successful corporations, what's their excuse?
Again, I'm not sure what time frame you are talking about. The PBGC sets some rules, I'm not sure a successful company can 'raid' a pension. Again, references?

If you mean they are cutting/eliminating the contributions to future benefits (not earned yet), yes, that is happening. IMO, they don't need an 'excuse'.

They don't need an 'excuse' anymore than most of us LBYM forum members need an excuse to pay as little for something as we can. Coupon clipping, comparative shopping, wait for sales, etc - most of us do some of that w/o excuse. Since most of us are 'successful', should we pay more than we need to, just to support the workers who make the products? I doubt you shop that way for products and services. Do as I say, not as I do? We are in a more global job market - we have to face the facts.


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Old 09-28-2011, 08:58 PM   #28
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The fortunes of the private sector working class need to turn somehow. Until that happens, I fear the working class will be effectively turned against itself.
"Workers of the world, unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains."
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Old 09-29-2011, 06:52 AM   #29
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"Workers of the world, unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains."
Derived from:

"The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win."
I like these:

"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."

Jesus could have said that, I admire Marx because of his empathy and concern for people.

and

"History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce."
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Old 09-29-2011, 07:09 AM   #30
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"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."

Jesus could have said that, I admire Marx because of his empathy and concern for people.
I think they might have differed in the mechanics of how the "from each" was to occur. These tiny details make all the difference . . .
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Old 09-29-2011, 07:23 AM   #31
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I think they might have differed in the mechanics of how the "from each" was to occur. These tiny details make all the difference . . .
So you agree that Jesus would have agreed with the concept.

Jesus wasn't big on money, but he did endorse taxation "render unto Caesar", not paying your landlord, and wasn't big on accumulation of wealth "eye of camel".
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Old 09-29-2011, 07:48 AM   #32
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So you agree that Jesus would have agreed with the concept.
It all depends what concept we are talking about.
Anyway, let's avoid inviting Porky to our conversation here. The followers of both Marx and Jesus have put their ideas into practice on earth, the evaluation of the results is an exercise left to the reader.
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Old 10-03-2011, 10:56 AM   #33
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Back on topic for a second:
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I don't think the President made a speech detailing this. I think the details are probably located somewhere in a lengthy document describing the "debt reduction plan".
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http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/defa...tteereport.pdf
This gets you the PDF of the document being waved about by assorted persons of a political bent.
Thanks again, guys. I pulled a bunch of links together for this post:
The military drawdown and benefits cuts | Military Retirement & Financial Independence

Scary headlines? Sure. However the only immediate changes are to Tricare subscription copays and to military retirees who are retiring over the next 12 months.

Everything else is either a "proposal" or a "committee". (Personally I think the Defense Business Board retirement-change proposal has been quietly shelved by the new SECDEF.) There's a lot of work ahead, just as there was for the BRAC base-closing process, but it should allow for plenty of feedback and shaping by veteran's groups.
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Old 10-03-2011, 11:33 AM   #34
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I wonder what is in store for gray area retirees like myself? I don't get my pension (a modest $600 a month) and health benefits until I turn age 60, in 2026.

Too bad there isn't an option to take a buy out of my pension. I think I would go for the cash now. At least I'd get something and would have more control.
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Old 10-03-2011, 11:40 AM   #35
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I wonder what is in store for gray area retirees like myself? I don't get my pension (a modest $600 a month) and health benefits until I turn age 60, in 2026.
Well, for one thing federal pension laws generally forbid reducing promised benefits for service already performed. The only questions will be about how COLAs are given out and how health care coverage is provided.

As far as military goes, I fully expect that anyone who is already retired or currently actively serving won't be impacted -- could be wrong, though. Benefits for new hires, especially health care, may very well be watered down.

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Too bad there isn't an option to take a buy out of my pension. I think I would go for the cash now. At least I'd get something and would have more control.
I become eligible for my tiny pension from a previous employer in 2020, and I suspect they will offer me a buyout just before then -- but I could be wrong. At this time I don't plan to take it unless it's an offer I can't refuse. I have a lot of 401K and not a lot of pension now, and I'd like to have at least some "secure income stream" baseline besides whatever SS decides to give me.
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Old 10-03-2011, 12:57 PM   #36
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I wonder what is in store for gray area retirees like myself? I don't get my pension (a modest $600 a month) and health benefits until I turn age 60, in 2026.
I think you'll be on Medicare before anyone is subject to the "new" retirement plan.

Using REDUX as an example, it'll only affect new recruits-- and no matter how generous it is I'm sure the recruiters will dread being on the front lines of the educational marketing.

BTW you're calculating that $600 at today's dollars with the maximum pay scale for your rank, regardless of your actual years of service in that rank, right?

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Too bad there isn't an option to take a buy out of my pension. I think I would go for the cash now. At least I'd get something and would have more control.
I'm not a big fan of annuity sales tactics, but an annuity is a wonderful tool for keeping us from doing something really stupid with more than a portion of our money...
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Old 10-03-2011, 02:19 PM   #37
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Oh yeah Nords, I know I've already gotten many pay raises since I retired in 2007. The $600 was in 2007 dollars, so with decent COLAs over the next 15 years it should provide equivilent purchasing power (I expect some slight erosion). I consider it beer and pizza money.

As an O3 with 22 years I was already maxed out on the pay scale!
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Old 10-03-2011, 08:48 PM   #38
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Oh yeah Nords, I know I've already gotten many pay raises since I retired in 2007. The $600 was in 2007 dollars, so with decent COLAs over the next 15 years it should provide equivilent purchasing power (I expect some slight erosion). I consider it beer and pizza money.
As an O3 with 22 years I was already maxed out on the pay scale!
I was surprised when I learned about that "at your max pay scale for that rank" provision. I thought it had to be a mistake.

But yeah, you're lookin' kinda topped out there. Your only improvement would be if they started handing out targeted pay raises to O-3s for retention and included you by unintended consequences accident. I got a 5.8% targeted pay raise six months before I retired, which I regarded as belated recognition of my true value...
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Old 10-04-2011, 12:38 PM   #39
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I wonder what is in store for gray area retirees like myself? I don't get my pension (a modest $600 a month) and health benefits until I turn age 60, in 2026.

Too bad there isn't an option to take a buy out of my pension. I think I would go for the cash now. At least I'd get something and would have more control.
Bimmerbill,

Won't your'e retirement be based on the existing pay table for an 03 in 2026? I thought the only way retirement pay was stuck at your pay when you hit 20 qualifying years(or stopped participating in the RC after you attained 20 qualifying years) was if you quit the reserves and not move into the "retired reserve"?

Ok, I see where you will be receiving the annual increases between now and 2026.
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Old 10-04-2011, 01:43 PM   #40
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Yes, retirement pay will be based on military pay tables in effect in 2026. Since they typically get a COLA or adjustment yearly, it's like I am getting a COLA as well, even tho I am retired and not drawing my pension.

I am in the retired reserve for that very reason.
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