Join Early Retirement Today
View Poll Results: Where do you stand with respect to net worth and mortgage payments?
Milliionaire making mortgage payments 106 25.98%
Non-millionaire making mortgage payments 96 23.53%
Non-millionaire with paid off home 43 10.54%
Milliionaire with paid off home 146 35.78%
Renter, live with parents, or other housing arrangements 17 4.17%
Voters: 408. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?
Old 01-08-2007, 08:29 PM   #61
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 8,626
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?

Sounds like a turbotax run is in order. Is "back of the envelope" a software package sold by Microsoft?
__________________

__________________
LOL! is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?
Old 01-09-2007, 11:10 AM   #62
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
cute fuzzy bunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Losing my whump
Posts: 22,697
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
That might be the way taxes used to be calculated (the infamous "tax-bracket creep") but I thought that nowadays moving into a new bracket would only apply to the income/dividends above the cutoff. IOW you'd still get 5% on your dividends/cap gains until you went above the limit, and whatever's above that limit would be taxed at 15%-- not everything, just the amount above the limit.

But I could be wrong.
No, you arent. However since i'm skirting the 5/15% boundary right now, any additional capital gains created to satisfy a debt instrument would be taxed at the 15% level and any addition ordinary income generated would get taxed at the usual income tax rates a bracket or two higher than what we're paying now.

I'd only get interest deductions to the extent that they exceeded the standard deduction.

As far as "the back of the envelope", its actually about six pages from last years tax return that I printed out and doctored up with the prospective numbers. I suppose those would make a fairly odd envelope. But i'm sure if they thought they'd make a few dollars off of it, microsoft would find a way to sell it.

Hell, the owner married the woman who brought us Microsoft Bob...

Back to the original question: do millionaires pay off their mortgages? I would imagine that someone that is well into the "millionaire" status would be a different scenario. If I had $5+M I might have one...cuz who cares? If I had a fairly small ER portfolio to work with...under $1M...I might HAVE to have one and take my chances.

One of the biggest concerns about ERing seems to be "what if I run out of money?" or "what if I have to go back to work in 10 years and my job skills are shot?".

In my mind (oh go ahead) you increase those risks in a linear fashion coupled with your monthly expense demand. Its great to have a larger port and arb a point or two out of it, but if you're carrying more lower return fixed income or easing off of the riskier, higher returning asset classes or frittering most of your gains away to income taxes...bad deal.

If you're still working and accumulating, you have a huge pot of cash such that any holes in the road wont screw you up, your "old job" has no special skills or knowledge that rots over time, you have a solid income stream that can cover the bills (cola'd pension) and/or you're already comfortable with carrying a high risk, high volatility portfolio...this decision makes sense.

Carving it down to "I can make xx% on a cd and pay yy% on a mortgage, so i'm making xx-yy" or "I can invest the money at an 8% average return while paying a 6% mortgage and make 2%!" is the greatest rationalization for someone who has already decided to carry a mortgage. For how it fits into a total picture open minded financial plan? Not so much.

I have to admit to feeling a good bit of pleasure in not paying very much to the feds and the state of california. Those seem to be poor returning investments for the most part.
__________________

__________________
Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
cute fuzzy bunny is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?
Old 01-09-2007, 12:28 PM   #63
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,620
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Guapo
However since i'm skirting the 5/15% boundary right now, any additional capital gains created to satisfy a debt instrument would be taxed at the 15% level and any addition ordinary income generated would get taxed at the usual income tax rates a bracket or two higher than what we're paying now.
I'd only get interest deductions to the extent that they exceeded the standard deduction.
I have to admit to feeling a good bit of pleasure in not paying very much to the feds and the state of california. Those seem to be poor returning investments for the most part.
Well, tax considerations affect our investing strategies far more than they should. I'd be happy to share my additional gains with wasteful politicians and Dory's server fund-- I'd still have more than I would by doing nothing. I guess it's human nature-- no matter how far ahead we are on points, we still hate to give up a touchdown. It reminds me of Covey's arm-wrestling for money analogy-- our competitive spirits can always get in the way of making more money for everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Guapo
I suppose those would make a fairly odd envelope. But i'm sure if they thought they'd make a few dollars off of it, microsoft would find a way to sell it.
Hell, the owner married the woman who brought us Microsoft Bob...
That just popped up a scary image. Maybe JG doesn't post anymore because he's locked in a focus-group conference room at Redmond testing the next-generation tablet machines-- the new "back-of-the-envelope" computers. They're probably trying to figure out a way to make the screen blank out when he uses the "pencil eraser" on it.

Bill Gates should stop appearing on TV with Melinda before everyone realizes that she's smarter than he is. Doesn't take much in the smarts department to marry a major babe with a brain, either, even if that's the only way he could kill off the funding for the "Son of Bob" project.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Guapo
Carving it down to "I can make xx% on a cd and pay yy% on a mortgage, so i'm making xx-yy" or "I can invest the money at an 8% average return while paying a 6% mortgage and make 2%!" is the greatest rationalization for someone who has already decided to carry a mortgage. For how it fits into a total picture open minded financial plan? Not so much.
Guilty. It's not a question of "if" it should be done... only of "how much". And I agree with all the risks, other lower-interest-rate-earning assets, and "sleep at night" issues you've raised.

In addition to the portfolio distractions, another factor is the hassle. We could earn more by stoozing a half-dozen credit cards, with their attendant hazards of missing a deadline or having a lower FICA score jack up our insurance rates. Arbing a mortgage for a higher-paying CD is a safer hassle for a lower return, but it's still a hassle.

So, like prolonged unemployment, maybe ER just gives us more time to obsess optimize these crazy revenue-generating schemes...
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?
Old 01-09-2007, 01:14 PM   #64
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
cute fuzzy bunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Losing my whump
Posts: 22,697
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?

I agree completely on not selling yourself short in order to shortchange the government.

But i'm just playing legal three card monte with them. I'm living the lifestyle I want, making good money on my investments, and giving them as little of the proceeds as possible. Its a weird conjunction of having high assets, producing most of our income from qualified dividends and long term gains as possible, and minimizing regular taxable income.

Take the standard deductions, pay 5% on the dividends and capital gains, and nothing or nearly nothing on what looks like poverty level "ordinary" income on a tax form. I'm sure this construction is more meant to reward low income people that are trying to invest, or those on social security income taking some dividends and gains from their retirement portfolio...not for a pair of 45 year olds still working part time.

But i'll take it.

Throw 25-30k in additional gains and payments into the mix...icky.
__________________
Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
cute fuzzy bunny is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?
Old 01-09-2007, 01:17 PM   #65
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
bright eyed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,891
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2B
California taxes keep getting manipulated and the speculators find new suckers. I've seen articles that say 70% of the people that own homes in California couldn't afford to buy them at the current valuations. Wages are not higher in California (overall) but property stays high. I wouldn't buy a house at the current prices in California and the other vastly inflated markets. I'd rent (and throw my money away and pay my landlords mortgage) until the next good old fashion recession. Then, the pickings will improve.
oh, you're making me feel better =D. we live in CA and have 3 kids so we are not likely to "buy" anything soon - where we live the houses cost $700k and up. My mom purchased her home for $240k and now it is worth (in 10 years) $750k+ and houses have sold in her neighborhood for more - these are 4 bedroom cookie cutter track homes in the suburbs.

i do think all the "creative financing" has gotten extremely out of control and they should put some ceilings on what is considered reasonable, i know most people can't afford these gigantic mortgages and living on the pipe dream that they can dig their way out on equity...while people like me are hoping this bubble will burst! :P which it did in the early/mid 90's!

i feel good about my $1500 rent (reality is geographically imposed)! we can't relocate to lower cost areas since our family is around these parts and not likely to all jump together to arizona, texas or oregon - CA expat locations of choice.
__________________
If i think of something clever to say, i'll put it here...
bright eyed is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?
Old 01-09-2007, 02:06 PM   #66
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 56
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?


The problem with examples like Edelman gives is that there's no warning of the risks involved. You get higher return by having a larger and/or interest only mortgage because you're investing in stocks (instead of the bond-like paying off the mortgage earlier). Stocks aren't a magic 8% flat rate return machine. If you did this in, say, 1966 or 2000 Brother B might be in a bit more of a pinch.

The other risk is that the leftover invested funds end up turning into new cars or other spending, instead of actually staying invested for the span of the mortgage. Probably the bigger risk for most people.

Having said that, I did end up taking the bet (equity-out refinance, invested in dividend stocks) a few years ago. So far it's worked out well. But I track those monies very carefully to make sure that I'm getting good value for the risk, and not spending it.
__________________
work4beer is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?
Old 01-10-2007, 05:08 PM   #67
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
clifp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,451
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Work 4 Beer
The problem with examples like Edelman gives is that there's no warning of the risks involved. You get higher return by having a larger and/or interest only mortgage because you're investing in stocks (instead of the bond-like paying off the mortgage earlier). Stocks aren't a magic 8% flat rate return machine. If you did this in, say, 1966 or 2000 Brother B might be in a bit more of a pinch.

The other problem is he is ignoring taxes on the value of his saving. I'll concede that 8% returns are not unreasonable (the Vanguard S&P is 8.3% over the last 10 years) in a taxed deferred account. However, 8% after tax even if he uses super-tax efficient fund (like VFINX) is another story.
Lets say he paid no taxes during the 15 years (a portfolio of non-dividend paying growth stocks) He has saving of $282,019, his contributions are 125K.
Even if the 15% dividend/cap gain tax rates remains in effect he will still owe ~20% (15 fed+5% state) on the 157K of profits. After paying taxes Brother B is left with a free and clear house and $60K in savings, vs Brother A's $30K. Brother B took considerable risk with a 100% stock market investment I am not sure the $30K is worth the risk. The 10 year after tax returns on VFINX is 7.12%. It is far from clear to me that borrowing money @7.42% (even with tax benefits) to earn 7.12% is a brilliant strategy.

That being said, when I had bought out my ex-girlfriends 50% share of the house we bought together, I elected to assume her mortagage rather than pay it off. But the mortgage was one of those old fashion 15 year 4.875% ones. If it had been even 1% higher I would have thought about it differently.

I think it is also important to distinguish between what is prudent for people in the accumulation phase and those of us retired. I don't like the idea of a 30 year old paying extra on his 6.38% mortgage if he doesn't have an emergency fund. On the other hand I think somebody who qualifies for conventional 20% down mortgage to elect to take a interest only mortgage with at 1% higher rate just so they can have some financial flexiblity is taking too much risk . However, for a 30 year old who is a good saver and investor the pontential to earn higher returns may make sense. For a early retired millionaire I can't think of any reason why taking this additional risk would make sense.
__________________
clifp is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?
Old 01-10-2007, 05:56 PM   #68
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
dex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,105
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?

I feel better that I'm with the people who paid off their mortgage.

The main reasons are that I have the security of a paid off home, and I don't have to think about investing to meet a mortgage payment.

I got the sense from taking with some people that I was going to pay for the house in cash, that I was crazy.

During the closing I asked the attorney if many people paid for their house in cash. He said that people either paid in full or took out the largest mortgage they could afford.
__________________
Sometimes death is not as tragic as not knowing how to live. This man knew how to live--and how to make others glad they were living. - Jack Benny at Nat King Cole's funeral
dex is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?
Old 01-11-2007, 09:21 PM   #69
Administrator
W2R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 38,934
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?

I paid off my house in November, and I sure don't regret it.
__________________
Already we are boldly launched upon the deep; but soon we shall be lost in its unshored, harbourless immensities.

- - H. Melville, 1851
W2R is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?
Old 01-11-2007, 09:41 PM   #70
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 699
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?

I have been by temperament in the pay-it-off camp, but am migrating to the maximize-endstate camp. With a fixed-rate mortgage at 2.6% (~1.6% after tax credits), I am finally starting to think, hmm, maybe it is worth the risk to let it be and invest instead. (Yes, I'm slow.)

My bank lets one make pre-payments in one of two ways: either shorten the remaining time on the loan, or reduce the monthly payments going forward. I think I will satisfy my irrational "pay-it-off" urges by making the second type of pre-payments occasionally, which at least frees up a bit of extra cash flow each month so it is not a total waste.

If I were in a position to pay it all off immediately, that would probably be very tempting anyway. Or maybe it would be less tempting, because then, who cares?
__________________
bpp is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?
Old 01-12-2007, 07:17 PM   #71
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 322
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?

So how many lived in the house and it got paid down over time vs those that paid extra into the mortgage or paid cash ?
__________________
spideyrdpd is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?
Old 01-12-2007, 08:11 PM   #72
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: North Bay
Posts: 1,026
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?

Quote:
So how many lived in the house and it got paid down over time vs those that paid extra into the mortgage or paid cash ?
Made normal payments for 17 years (with two early refi's: 11-3/4% down to 9-1/8% down to 7-1/8%) and then made a lump payment of $60K to pay off the balance with 6 years left on the mortgage. In 2002 that lump was 5% of networth, so it wasn't a huge decision to make. The house was worth about $450K, so I was deciding between paying it off and refinancing up to 80% and investing the rest in the stock market. I probably would have made more money doing the refi, but I'm still happy where I am.
__________________
scrinch is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?
Old 01-14-2007, 09:21 AM   #73
Administrator
W2R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 38,934
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spideyrdpd
So how many lived in the house and it got paid down over time vs those that paid extra into the mortgage or paid cash ?
I paid 20% down and lived in a minimalistic fashion ("like a student", in other words) in the house. Meanwhile I chucked every penny I had into it so it was paid off in four years.

I'm not saying that paying off my house was necessarily a great investment, or the right decision for everybody; but in my case it was something that gave me tremendous satisfaction that I wouldn't trade for anything. No matter what the market does, that house is paid off and as long as I pay my miniscule taxes it is all MINE.

Now, on the first of every month I have a big smile on my face that could be seen a block away.
__________________
Already we are boldly launched upon the deep; but soon we shall be lost in its unshored, harbourless immensities.

- - H. Melville, 1851
W2R is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?
Old 01-14-2007, 11:27 AM   #74
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 714
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?

OK, bpp ... we need your help. Check around in Japan, and see if you can find a mortgage lender for us at 2.6% fixed, in U.S. dollars, for all the great FICO scores on this board ... we'll even pay a couple points ...

__________________
Craig is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?
Old 01-14-2007, 01:22 PM   #75
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 987
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spideyrdpd
So how many lived in the house and it got paid down over time vs those that paid extra into the mortgage or paid cash?
DW/me started construction in early 1994 on our current (e.g. retirement abode) and moved in the end of May. 30-year mortgage started at that time. Paid it off August 15, 1999 (a little over 5 years), through paying an amount of about 2.5 normal monthly payments (a lot of LYBM went to that contribution!).

While most folks were putting money into the market in the mid-late '90's, we put money into paying off our mortgage (e.g. note). Starting in September of 1999, after "retiring" the mortgage, we started putting an amount equal to our normal mortgage payment into the market (increasing our current IRA's/401K's). If you remember, this was a time of great "opportunities" (2000-02) to "buy cheap" (of which we did!!). The result was that we became mortgage free and had great results going forward in our retirement accounts.

Didn't plan it, but nothing beats "dumb luck". My wife (being a "bag lady") wanted to ensure that we paid off the mortgage ASAP (definitely before we retired). When you look at the raw numbers, we had $125K in interest we did not have to pay, according to our repayment schedule. At a 28% federal rate, we would have had to have $160K income to cover the interest alone (not including state/local income tax). For us, that was almost 2 years of normal gross income (e.g. we get to retire 2 years earlier).

Yes, you can debate alternatives. However, we're extremely happy with our decision, in this matter, to get rid of the mortgage and move on.

- Ron
__________________
rs0460a is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?
Old 01-14-2007, 01:30 PM   #76
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
cute fuzzy bunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Losing my whump
Posts: 22,697
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?

I had the same luck. Had the run-up money and then things started dropping. Decided paying off the 6.25% mortgage with some of the run-up proceeds was a good idea and a nice diversification plan. Then the bottom fell out. I was a dang genius AGAIN!
__________________
Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
cute fuzzy bunny is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?
Old 01-14-2007, 06:16 PM   #77
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 699
Re: Millionaires: do they pay off their mortgages?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
OK, bpp ... we need your help. Check around in Japan, and see if you can find a mortgage lender for us at 2.6% fixed, in U.S. dollars,
Yup, that's the catch, isn't it? You'll have to borrow and repay in yen, and take on exchange-rate risk. That is true for me, too, to the extent that I hold investments outside Japan, and even my Japanese stocks tend to suffer when the yen rises. So not risk-free, unless we get a few more BOJ rate hikes like the one that appears imminent, in which case I could back up the truck on JGBs. (Oh please, please, please...)

Quote:
for all the great FICO scores on this board ... we'll even pay a couple points ...
That's the other catch, of course -- your FICO scores don't count for squat in Japan. And nobody does "points" here, as far as I know, so you can't sweeten the deal that way.
__________________
bpp is offline   Reply With Quote
I'm with Alex on this one
Old 01-10-2008, 10:33 AM   #78
Recycles dryer sheets
StJohnsWood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 157
I'm with Alex on this one

I plan to have a mortgage until the day I die. A mortgage is nothing more to me than a financial tool. Now if my tax situation changes I may have to reevaluate.

As long as you maintain liquidity then a mortgage can be a good thing and allow you to increase your net worth.

If I have the house paid off, I can't sell a bedroom to raise cash if needed. I could take a home equity loan (mortgage).

Of course the key is not to over extend yourself and have a little control on what to do with your debt.

I try to run my personal finance like a business. A little debt to grow the business is always good. As long as the debt doesn't get out of control.
__________________
StJohnsWood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2008, 11:26 AM   #79
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
calmloki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Independence
Posts: 5,459
Mortgage here, but only because we took one out to pay off an investment property. Interest rate on an owner-occupied home was several points better than our commercial loan, and i have all sorts of itemized expenses, so writing off home interest or rental property interest is all the same. Just finishing a PenFed refi and dropping the interest on our home another 1/2 point and some of a 5.75% interest only rental house loan.
__________________
calmloki is offline   Reply With Quote
Love mortgages
Old 01-10-2008, 12:37 PM   #80
Recycles dryer sheets
aenlighten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 275
Love mortgages

and kept mine for as long as it made sense. If I still had a stable source of income, I would have kept it. But paying it out of stock returns is high risk. Too high for me any longer.
__________________

__________________
aenlighten is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pay off the Mortgage at Retirement??? bbuzzard FIRE and Money 89 04-16-2007 08:01 AM
Military pension and pay - how much is it past 20 Average Joe FIRE and Money 13 03-18-2007 11:22 AM
Reserves/NG and the 40-year pay tables Nords FIRE and Money 9 02-15-2007 11:12 PM
Pay off 6.375% student loan first? CompoundInterestFan FIRE and Money 8 02-04-2007 10:18 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:18 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.