Missing the days of Dow 7000?

I started investing on 01/27/2000, 9.5 years ago. My annualized return is 3.2%. And I have made plenty of mistakes along the way too! Like hiring a financial advisor (my self-managed portfolio has returned 4.6% -annualized- since 2000 but the FA's performance has really hurt my overall returns, probably because of high fees), investing a large sum of money in REITs and Commodities on 9/26/2007 (performance chasing, oops), and dipping into my emergency funds to invest in stocks when people started talking about DOW 20,000. Maybe I was lucky.

Well, I remember that you did put extra into the market during the recent lows, and that helped.

Regarding commodities, yes you were late to the party. I was in early enough to enjoy some nice gains. I did not get out at the top, hence gave back some. Still, I couldn't complain as my portfolio nearly tripled from 2003 to 2007. Well, it halved from 2000 to 2003 first, thanks to tech stocks ! :)

I will try to even things out a bit, going forward. But selling too soon in a bull market does not cancel out the selling too late in a bear market, you know. :)
 
Eh, not so much. I think I could live without seeing a disaster of these proportions for the rest of my life. But if the equity market wants to hover for a while so that good quality investment grade corporates go back to double digit yields again for a bit, that would be OK by me. Man that was sweet.
 
Hindsight is 20/20.

I had a nice payment on a 3 year incentive plan come due in March, was finally paid around April 15. I had been seriously under allocated to bonds, so most of the incentive went to munis, with a little in corporates and a little in equities. I wish I had dumped all or most in equities, and then rebalanced right about now.

Oh well, my inputs now are pretty well in the proper allocations. Do I wish for 7000 again? No thanks. I'm too close to the finish line to wish for that. But if the Dow decided to stall where it is for the next year or so before taking a hike up north I would be OK with the opportunity to continue to DCA and reduce my avg cost basis, and accumulate moderate divvie payers.

R
 
Hindsight is 20/20.

I had a nice payment on a 3 year incentive plan come due in March, was finally paid around April 15. I had been seriously under allocated to bonds, so most of the incentive went to munis, with a little in corporates and a little in equities. I wish I had dumped all or most in equities, and then rebalanced right about now.

I bought bonds (index fund) the first week in April as well. Sure, I would have made more had I had the foresight to buy equities. But you know, I am just glad that I bought *something*. My bonds have gone up nicely since then, even though not as nicely as stocks.
 
Of course I wish I had bought more equities back in March, but no major regrets or mistakes here. I did accelerate my 401(k) contribution from Jan to April then slowed down. Like W2R, I am just glad I bought something and did not miss out entirely.

In the next year, our strategy is just to steadily DCA. In a year or so we should be close to our AA goal. So I am in the same camp as OP, hoping I can get my money in before stocks get too expensive.

Oh yeah, I also bought a bunch of REIT at its peak...
 
I suspect very few execute their AA rebalancing with no regards to the economic backdrop. To do that, one must turn off all external info sources, and look only at the portfolio numbers. Then, in a way, he is just like one who relies on technical analysis for individual stocks. Head and shoulders. What goes up must come down, and vice versa, or something like that (sorry that I am not versed in their terminology as I am not in their camp).

Anyway, I think most people are doing the same thing, i.e. "goosing" their rebalancing with some economic news. Only one person in this forum is doing it not even by an AA out-of-balance criteria, but on Jan 2, in order to completely remove all personal judgement. It may turn out OK too, but why Jan 2? Why not Aug 14 or whatever?
All of my stuff is done by rebalance criteria. How can I do it while I am inundated with economic data, etc.? Simply this - I realize that not matter what the data says I cannot predict the future, that things often turn far different from what everyone expects, that my attempts in the (distant) past to predict the future and invest accordingly had often had pretty miserable results. So I trust a system that ignores the future and spreads its bets according to a fixed allocation. It's the only way I know how to do it, so it's the only thing I do.

No attempts to "goose" here, just normal rebalancing when criteria is met. Many folks I know who have tried to be "clever" have gotten burned instead.

Audrey
 
Hmmm - I have wondered out loud whether those Vanguard Computers rebalancing my Target Retirement have personaliies/hormones/get emotional - you know tongue in cheek wise.

Then I ran across a Bogle comment - Target type funds suffer from 'pressure to adjust asset allocation to stay competitive.'

Ah say it ain't so! But I do believe equities were upped back when the future were considered brite - in time for the last downturn.

heh heh heh - man them pesky hormones is everywhere. :LOL::LOL::LOL:. Saint's preseason Aug 14 against the Bengals.:whistle:.
 
All of my stuff is done by rebalance criteria. How can I do it while I am inundated with economic data, etc.? Simply this - I realize that not matter what the data says I cannot predict the future, that things often turn far different from what everyone expects, that my attempts in the (distant) past to predict the future and invest accordingly had often had pretty miserable results. So I trust a system that ignores the future and spreads its bets according to a fixed allocation. It's the only way I know how to do it, so it's the only thing I do.

No attempts to "goose" here, just normal rebalancing when criteria is met. Many folks I know who have tried to be "clever" have gotten burned instead.

Audrey

And you appear to have done well in the past 10 years, so there is something to be said about that method. Trying to be "clever" can certainly burn one, as I have often described how friends of mine went to 100% gold in the early 90s. It was really an extreme case, as they were trying to predict doomsday, and some people are still doing it today. Maybe doomsday will come some time later, who knows, but it appears not this month or not this year (knock on wood).

In an up-and-down market like the past 10 years, rebalancing beats buy and hold because it forces you to buy low and sell high, despite an investor's tendency to gloat and hang on in up periods, and to flee in the bear period. In long bull markets like 1990 to 2000, I would think rebalancers kicked themselves for selling out while the market kept rising.

On the other hand, what criteria do you choose for rebalancing? I remember some posts by some members describing efforts to "tweak" the criteria so it would work better, i.e. the % of imbalance, and how to space the rebalance apart, or something like that. It appeared to me that such tweaking is done by looking in the rearview mirror, which I am not convinced is better than trying to look ahead. I have seen technical analysts trying to back-test their "algorithm" to fit past data, and frankly, their efforts are not very convincing to me.

How do you chose your rebalance criteria, and how often do you change them, if ever? To follow a rigid criteria, would it be better to allow the computer to do it, e.g. psst Wellesley like Uncle Mick likes to say? Thanks in advance for the reply.
 
In an up-and-down market like the past 10 years, rebalancing beats buy and hold because it forces you to buy low and sell high, despite an investor's tendency to gloat and hang on in up periods, and to flee in the bear period. In long bull markets like 1990 to 2000, I would think rebalancers kicked themselves for selling out while the market kept rising.

On the other hand, what criteria do you choose for rebalancing? I remember some posts by some members describing efforts to "tweak" the criteria so it would work better, i.e. the % of imbalance, and how to space the rebalance apart, or something like that. It appeared to me that such tweaking is done by looking in the rearview mirror, which I am not convinced is better than trying to look ahead. I have seen technical analysts trying to back-test their "algorithm" to fit past data, and frankly, their efforts are not very convincing to me.

How do you chose your rebalance criteria, and how often do you change them, if ever? To follow a rigid criteria, would it be better to allow the computer to do it, e.g. psst Wellesley like Uncle Mick likes to say? Thanks in advance for the reply.

I consider rebalancing to maintain your target asset allocation a key component of buy and hold investing. Is that not the consensus view?

Personally, I have yet to sell anything to rebalance into another asset class. I periodically check the current asset allocation and see which asset classes are under their targets. Then add new money to those underallocated asset classes. Right now the only real standout that is a candidate for getting partially sold and reinvested elsewhere is my Emerging Markets that is around 11% of the portfolio vs a target of 9%. That is about 20% more emerging markets than I want, but I'm letting it ride mainly because I don't have any kind of rebalancing rules (yet). I probably need to come up with a plan though... :D If the allocation gets much more out of whack, I'll probably do some rebalancing.
 
I consider rebalancing to maintain your target asset allocation a key component of buy and hold investing. Is that not the consensus view?

Personally, I have yet to sell anything to rebalance into another asset class. I periodically check the current asset allocation and see which asset classes are under their targets. Then add new money to those underallocated asset classes. Right now the only real standout that is a candidate for getting partially sold and reinvested elsewhere is my Emerging Markets that is around 11% of the portfolio vs a target of 9%. That is about 20% more emerging markets than I want, but I'm letting it ride mainly because I don't have any kind of rebalancing rules (yet). I probably need to come up with a plan though... :D If the allocation gets much more out of whack, I'll probably do some rebalancing.

I consider rebalancing as part of the buy n hold strategy.

I use the "bands" method rather then a particular date or time frame. Any holding that is outside 5% of target gets rebalanced. This is for slices that are >/= 20% of my holdings. Smaller slices get rebalanced when they are off by 25% - ie REIT's are 5% of my AA so they are rebalanced when < about 4% or > then about 6%. This has been mostly with adding new money but when we had that wild ride down I was forced to rebalance twice from bonds to equities.

My take on rebalancing is that it is NOT a technique for boosting yield but rather a method to control risk.

DD
 
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I consider rebalancing to maintain your target asset allocation a key component of buy and hold investing. Is that not the consensus view?

I agree with you that a proper asset allocation is fundamental to a successful buy-and-hold strategy. I guess it really should be called buy-properly-allocated-investments-and-hold but that's too unwieldy. :)
 
In an up-and-down market like the past 10 years, rebalancing beats buy and hold because it forces you to buy low and sell high, despite an investor's tendency to gloat and hang on in up periods, and to flee in the bear period.

It would seem so, but if you have any data to back it up, I'd be very interested. I did a rough & tumble stab at a spreadsheet to back test the effects of rebalancing, and the results seemed inconclusive to me. But I'm sure there are better studies out there than my weak attempt.

There have been wide swings in the past ten years, so you can still end up buying on the way down (so some is bought at relatively high levels), and selling on the way up (so some is sold at relatively low levels, and you miss out on some of the remaining bull).

One thing in my study made me very suspicious - I analyzed with incrementally increasing % delta points to trigger the re-balance, and the results did not vary smoothly at all. Instead of steadily increasing, and then decreasing at some point, the returns jumped one way or the other at certain "magic numbers". So I really suspect that was just data-mining (the bad kind), and it told me which % points hit the optimal peaks/troughs that occurred in that particular data set.

I still do rebalancing, but just because it just seems consistent to pick an AA and stick with it, and there is no clear pro to *not* doing it. I'm just not counting on rebalancing to boost (or hurt) my gains.

-ERD50
 
I use the "bands" method rather then a particular date or time frame. Any holding that is outside 5% of target gets rebalanced. This is for slices that are >/= 20% of my holdings. Smaller slices get rebalanced when they are off by 25% - ie REIT's are 5% of my AA so they are rebalanced when < about 4% or > then about 6%. This has been mostly with adding new money but when we had that wild ride down I was forced to rebalance twice from bonds to equities.

My take on rebalancing is that it is NOT a technique for boosting yield but rather a method to control risk.

This sounds like a sensible approach and sensible thresholds for rebalancing. Something like if the allocation becomes greater or less than 25% of the target amount, then rebalance. My 9% emerging markets allocation would trigger rebalancing when it was out of whack by 2.25% either direction (6.75% or less and 11.25% or more).

I think the rebalancing can add less than a percent (and potentially very little) to performance, given that many of the equities asset classes remain fairly highly correlated. Risk control is a bigger benefit, especially as between equities and fixed income.
 
I'm missing the days of Dow 14,000.
 
I consider rebalancing to maintain your target asset allocation a key component of buy and hold investing. Is that not the consensus view?
No. I personally consider buy-and-hold to be kind of the opposite to rebalancing. In buy-and-hold, you let your winners run. In rebalancing, you trim from your winners and add to your losers.

Rebalancing usually beats buy-and-hold during rollercoaster/secular bear markets. Buy-and-hold beats rebalancing during secular bull markets.

But I notice that a lot of folks lump them together. I never understood that, but it does seem to be prevelant.

So, consensus is probably not my view. But I thought I should explain how I see it.

Audrey
 
But I notice that a lot of folks lump them together. I never understood that, but it does seem to be prevelant.

So, consensus is probably not my view. But I thought I should explain how I see it.

I guess rebalancing falls under the definition of buy and hold in the sense that you try to buy and hold a particular asset allocation. When allocations get out of whack you sell some winners to buy some losers.

I think Vanguard promotes buy and hold investing in their newsletters and articles on their website, however they also encourage rebalancing of your buy and hold portfolio.
 
On the other hand, what criteria do you choose for rebalancing? I remember some posts by some members describing efforts to "tweak" the criteria so it would work better, i.e. the % of imbalance, and how to space the rebalance apart, or something like that. It appeared to me that such tweaking is done by looking in the rearview mirror, which I am not convinced is better than trying to look ahead. I have seen technical analysts trying to back-test their "algorithm" to fit past data, and frankly, their efforts are not very convincing to me.

How do you chose your rebalance criteria, and how often do you change them, if ever? To follow a rigid criteria, would it be better to allow the computer to do it, e.g. psst Wellesley like Uncle Mick likes to say? Thanks in advance for the reply.
I don't really change my criteria, although there have been a couple of evolutions over time.

I have gradually reduced my equity percentage over time. I started out at 60% and am now at 55%, and I now have a general idea of what formula I'll use for reducing it going forward. It makes sense to me to have less equity exposure as I age.

I tend to do some rebalancing every January, because I have to deal with paying taxes and mutual fund distributions that weren't reinvested. I have picked Jan 15 as my date so that I have time to figure out all my distributions and calculate taxes. I have become rather religious about keeping to this fixed date, because any deviation gets me caught in the "should I do it now or should I wait" trap.

Otherwise, I wait until the portfolio is at least some %X out of balance before rebalancing. I like the delta idea - it appeals to me. I think it makes more sense than only using a fixed annual or two year schedule. IMO, under normal circumstances it takes at least 1 to 2 years to asset classes to diverge enough to justify rebalancing, and then trends tend to reverse over 2 to 5 year cycles. So rebalancing at 18 months to 2 years makes a lot of sense. But what if under unusual market conditions asset classes diverge much faster than that? That is why I adopted the "delta" approach early on.

But yes, I am one who has "tweaked" my criteria to not rebalance so often, and of course the tweaking was done looking the in the rear view mirror, because it is about what I will feel more "comfortable" with going forward. This 2008/2009 showed me how often one can end up rebalancing with a criteria as narrow as mine was (5%), so I increased it to at least an 8% band (with 10% being the absolute max), and I will stick with that from here on out. I just don't want to rebalance that often. Solution - widen the criteria. I don't have a problem with that.

I also have another rule I apply that I got from Frank Armstrong. It's the "minimum years of expenses to keep in cash+bonds" rule. I had always intended that I keep a minimum 10 years cash + bonds and not go below that due to rebalancing in a bad bear market. I just hoped I'd never experience such a scenario! Well, I came real close to hitting that this past January! Things were scary enough out there in Jan that I used 12 years as my minimum. I didn't rebalance again in March because according to that criteria I was out of "ammo". In fact, somehow I was already almost down to 11 years.

So, as I was on the downslope catching the falling knife via rebalancing, I got to test this scary stuff in practice, and refine what I thought was reasonable in the future - in terms of my personal sanity.

I deliberately picked an investment methodology that I thought I could live with and follow over all market conditions. A lot of the choices are psychological - knowing myself well enough to know what might work under various circumstances. Picking some deliberate "comfort zones". I think I did find the right system for me, and that is why I have been able to stick to it.

WHEW! So, that is the whole ball of wax - some minor refinements that IMO do not change the spirit of what I am doing, and I don't change my criteria based on market conditions. It's semi-automated in that numbers are pasted into spreadsheets weekly and they flag out-of-balance conditions and how much to buy or sell in each fund is determined by the spreadsheet. I do enter the orders manually.

Audrey
 
I guess rebalancing falls under the definition of buy and hold in the sense that you try to buy and hold a particular asset allocation. When allocations get out of whack you sell some winners to buy some losers.
Yeah, I just don't see that. Buy-and-hold has always referred to given stocks or funds. You can't really "buy and hold" an asset allocation. Well, maybe during accumulation phase when you don't really have to sell something but can shovel money towards the undervalued asset classes, and maybe this is what people mean. But once you are no longer adding money (i.e. retired), you have to sell something in the portfolio! IMO that is no longer "buy-and-hold".

Vanguard may sanction rebalancing, but Jack Bogle recently poo-poo'ed it.

I guess you can ask when is rebalancing appropriate for the long-term investor? When one has a long time-frame (>10 years) or even longer, investing in riskier asset classes and ignoring volatility makes sense IMO. When one gets within 10 years of retirement, the picture changes, and the need to gradually transition to a lower volatility retirement portfolio makes sense. Rebalancing helps reduce volatility.

Audrey
 
Yeah, I just don't see that. Buy-and-hold has always referred to given stocks or funds. You can't really "buy and hold" an asset allocation. Well, maybe during accumulation phase when you don't really have to sell something but can shovel money towards the undervalued asset classes, and maybe this is what people mean. But once you are no longer adding money (i.e. retired), you have to sell something in the portfolio!

Maybe it is something that you know when you see it. The guy that chases the momentum of hot mutual funds and switches what funds they are in every year is not buy and hold. The guy that trims back his emerging markets small cap value holdings from 7% to 5% after owning them for 10 years is a buy and hold person.

Maybe you can tell a buy and hold investor by asking them what "long term" means in terms of investments. Anything less than 20 years or forever means they are not a long term buy and hold investor. :D
 
Maybe it is something that you know when you see it. The guy that chases the momentum of hot mutual funds and switches what funds they are in every year is not buy and hold. The guy that trims back his emerging markets small cap value holdings from 7% to 5% after owning them for 10 years is a buy and hold person.
I guess that would depend on why the person decided to trim the emerging small cap value position.

Did he do it because he wanted to change his asset allocation? and why? What there a conscious decision to reduce the volatility of his portfolio? Did he decide to add a new asset class and therefore needed to "make room" for it.

Did he decide that emerging markets might not be as good a bet going forward and he wanted to give more weight so some "hotter" asset class?

Did he have an asset allocation in mind and just not rebalance for 10 years?

Audrey
 
Here is a link to a recent Vanguard article discussing the different types of buy and hold investing ("set it and forget it" and "stay the course"). The "stay the course" variety consists of rebalancing your portfolio to maintain an asset allocation.

Buy and hold is contrasted with market timing in this regard. Oddly enough, it appears Vanguard's only fund that attempts to time the market in any major sense is the "Asset Allocation" fund (currently 80% equities and 20% bonds).
 
Yeah, I just don't see that. Buy-and-hold has always referred to given stocks or funds. You can't really "buy and hold" an asset allocation. Well, maybe during accumulation phase when you don't really have to sell something but can shovel money towards the undervalued asset classes, and maybe this is what people mean. But once you are no longer adding money (i.e. retired), you have to sell something in the portfolio! IMO that is no longer "buy-and-hold".

Vanguard may sanction rebalancing, but Jack Bogle recently poo-poo'ed it.

Audrey

What Bogle stated was that annual rebalancing added little if any to your return and potentially cost you in expenses and he doesn't do it. On the other hand he is a strong proponent of "age in bonds" so would advise you to "rebalance" to that target if you drifted significantly away from it - again it is risk management not yield boosting.

In retirement you would rebalance by selling your winners to cover expenses and/or buy losers.

DD
 
Note that to many people "buy-and-hold" simply refers to someone who is not constantly playing the market.
 
... I did a rough & tumble stab at a spreadsheet to back test the effects of rebalancing, and the results seemed inconclusive to me...

One thing in my study made me very suspicious - I analyzed with incrementally increasing % delta points to trigger the re-balance, and the results did not vary smoothly at all. Instead of steadily increasing, and then decreasing at some point, the returns jumped one way or the other at certain "magic numbers". So I really suspect that was just data-mining (the bad kind), and it told me which % points hit the optimal peaks/troughs that occurred in that particular data set.

No, I do not have any proof of my own, nor have seen any in literature. I jumped to the above conclusion by seeing that the S&P500, Dow, and Nasdaq went through big gyrations in the last 10 years, and told myself that there were plenty of opportunities to buy low and sell high. In addition, there are anecdotal evidences of people posting here doing well by practicing AA balancing. Connie is the perfect example of "goosing" the AA in a downturn. She reclaimed her Oct 07 high a month or two ago. I wish I had the guts to do that. I think Moemg is also another gutsy lady.

Back to your post about the rebalancing criteria, you have done more than I have, which is zero, with your experiment. I would agree with the result of your exercise of trying to find the "optimal" bands for rebalancing, meaning the return being an erratic function of the band. It is another proof that the market is a random process. By the way, our geekspeak for the no-action band is "hysteresis" when we build a dynamic model of a system.

One can try to fit an "optimal" strategy to a specific stock period, but it doesn't mean much. An optimal hysteresis for rebalancing in 1999-2009 would be different than an optimal value for another period. There were long bull periods where one should not rebalance at all (in hindsight of course).

No. I personally consider buy-and-hold to be kind of the opposite to rebalancing. In buy-and-hold, you let your winners run. In rebalancing, you trim from your winners and add to your losers.
Note that to many people "buy-and-hold" simply refers to someone who is not constantly playing the market.

This is also the way I practice buy-and-hold. As I bought individual stocks, I would ride the winner until the fundamental changed. If a stock drops a bit, say 25%, I will investigate to see if I can discern a valid reason. Most of the time, it appears to be just "noise". Else, I will pull the trigger. Small and mid cap stocks are much noisier than the S&P 500, and I often let them drop as much as 50%.

So, my intention when buying a stock is to hold it forever, unless there is a reason to sell it. Just the fact that it has doubled in the last month or year and has outpaced the market does not mean it has to be sold. I do not buy a stock expecting it to double or triple in a year or even a few months, although have stumbled across a few that did. When that happens, it may be due to their cyclical business, or a major breakthrough or invention. I usually try to understand to satisfy my curiosity, then leave them alone. If I thought the stock got to bubble territories, then I would put a trailing stop trying to squeeze a bit more out of it.

My "buy-and-hold" takes a little bit of work, and requires some very subjective judgements, but an occasional 5-bagger would cancel out the little losses I suffered along the way. Most of my positions just fluttered along with the S&P500 anyway.

So, that's what I have been doing. On the other hand, most people here practice what I would call "buy-and-balance", which is a really a "stealth" method of market timing.

Buy-and-balance if applied to individual stocks means that you would sell way early out of Walmart, Home Depot, Cisco, and Intel, etc.., if you were lucky enough to stumble across them 20 years ago.


Vanguard may sanction rebalancing, but Jack Bogle recently poo-poo'ed it.

What Bogle stated was that annual rebalancing added little if any to your return and potentially cost you in expenses and he doesn't do it.

See how confusing it can be to a newcomer. As I stated in a previous thread, there are so many Bogleheads practicing different things, and they all claim to follow the guru.


All I can say is this, which I obseved after being in the market for a few years. There are more than one approach to make money, and even many more ways to lose money. In the short term, no method proves conclusively to be the best, and if it did and enough people followed it, it would stop working. And in the long run, we are all dead. Meanwhile, I am trying to have fun and also keep from going broke.
 
I guess that would depend on why the person decided to trim the emerging small cap value position.

Did he do it because he wanted to change his asset allocation? and why? What there a conscious decision to reduce the volatility of his portfolio? Did he decide to add a new asset class and therefore needed to "make room" for it.

Did he decide that emerging markets might not be as good a bet going forward and he wanted to give more weight so some "hotter" asset class?

Did he have an asset allocation in mind and just not rebalance for 10 years?

Audrey

This reminds me of David Frost's interview with Richard Nixon in 1977. Frost asked about obstruction of justice. Nixon said, no, what I did ws not obstruction of justice because it was not my intention to do so. He did admit that the things he did with other intention may have had the effect of obstruting justice.

When you come right down to it, it all depends on the meaning of "is".

Personally I favor the "quacks like a duck, it's a duck" for most purposes. :)

When it comes to market timing, let's just do and say we don't.

Ha
 
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