MMM Buys Brand New Nissan Leaf; "An Experiment"

So, you guys think he is really legit, still frugal after all the millions?

Perhaps not as much, but on this site there are many examples of frugal people who have retired well off and have stated that they have a hard time loosening the purse strings.
 
So, you guys think he is really legit, still frugal after all the millions?
There has been quite a lot of discussion of him here. The reaction a few years ago began as generally favorable, but support for him seemed to evaporate quite swiftly - probably as most of us started to cotton on to what he was about, which is a little different from the general culture here. He does still have a few supporters in our midst though.

Personally, the attitude apparent on his home page put me off, and he completely lost me when I saw the exhortation to "Join The Cult" on his site. No thank you. I can learn and discuss ER here without having to buy into any kind of personality cult following. That is like anathema to me.

I like what haha said about him once, when he suggested that perhaps MMM was "as phony as a $3 bill"!
 
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I really try to believe people, give the benefit of the doubt. It's been my experience that lots of people won't believe you anyway, so why bother lying? Truth is stranger than fiction mostly.

My Ma told me something when I was young that I never forgot, she said "I'm your mother and no matter what you do I'll always love you. But if you lie to me it would be a tragedy because I could never believe a word you say from that day on"

I kinda adopted her thoughts, once I catch someone in a lie I write them off forever.
 
I'm with you on the whole honesty thing Robbie, but I won't completely write off a person for one lie, depending on what that particular untruth is. Sometimes, otherwise honest people are too embarrassed to admit the truth. If I know them quite well, I can often tell they are not being completely upfront, and try to understand the reason for the lack of candor.

However, when willful dishonesty is a pattern of behavior, it's a very different thing. I can smell those folk a mile off and keep well away from them. I had the displeasure of having to work for one once, and found it hard to deal with my contempt for her methods while working a job that I very much wanted to keep.
 
MMM Buys Brand New Nissan Leaf; "An Experiment"

Some of the speculative comments about MMM above are entertaining. I like his blog, have learned a lot from it and have even met him. He's a former engineer who enjoys optimizing his finances and lots of other aspects of his life, resulting in a low cost lifestyle, and he writes about it in an entertaining fashion with some pizzazz, as if he's a FIRE super hero. All of the attitude is tongue-in-cheek because he's also just a young guy with a family named Pete, which he points out regularly. Because his rare story about retiring at 30 with no debt on $25,000/year is inspiring to a lot of people who enjoy and value his posts, and his blog has blown up to be the largest on early retirement, he's gotten very rich doing it. Now he's indulged in a $16,000 electric car. Oh my God! Will the republic survive?
 
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I'm fine with him buying a new car. I think on balance it is consistent with his proclaimed beliefs. The only thing I would like to validate is that he includes the cost of the car in his budget. If so, he'd be over $25K per year in annual expenses.

I've read his site and it has been part of my inspiration to FIRE. It also helped me see and think that I can retire on a lot less than the old 80% of my pre retirement income. So for that, I am glad I came across his site. For those who want to hold him to some standard - come on. You probably expect sports players to be someone your kid can look up to. Sorry, those days are long gone - if they ever were.
 
"So my total out-of-pocket cost with tax will be $16,000, which is equivalent to buying a brand-new car with a list price of $14,775."
So I Bought an Electric Car…

To me the most interesting things are the discounts that transform a $35k car into such a cheap, new 2016 electric vehicle. Listed biggest first, from that blog post:
-$7500 Federal tax credit
-$6000 Nissan finance incentive for taking a loan (a 0% loan paid over 6 yrs!)
-$4653 Colorado state tax credit
-$4500 assorted dealer discounts

So the dealer took the tax credits off the purchase price? I thought the buyer received the tax credits (as they applied to taxable income) off his tax return? Correct me if I am wrong here, but a tax credit is not money.
 
So, you guys think he is really legit, still frugal after all the millions?

Well, I can say I live on $25K if I take off enough stuff and call it business expenses...


I spent an hour or so reading his blog a year or two ago... I think he might have actually started off with what he said... but I do not think he is close now... if he is making $400K off his blog I doubt very seriously he is really roughing it anymore....


BTW, I did not find his site interesting at all...



Also remember the lady who claimed to be a millionaire and making minimum wage or something... kinda the same boat IMO.... who knows what kind of money she is pulling in on her blog...
 
Well, I can say I live on $25K if I take off enough stuff and call it business expenses...

+1. Many posters here would have much lower budgets if they left off major expense categories such as home repairs, income taxes and travel and didn't include reserves in the budget for large infrequent expenses like high medical or dental expense years, long term care, college expenses or car replacements or didn't factor in future increased expenses for health care. Our health insurance premiums will increase significantly once we turn 65 compared to our ACA subsidized policy. I don't think the Fidelity numbers for a couple spending ~$250K in retirement medical expenses are too far off the mark, and that does not include LTC.
 
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So the dealer took the tax credits off the purchase price? I thought the buyer received the tax credits (as they applied to taxable income) off his tax return? Correct me if I am wrong here, but a tax credit is not money.

The Colorado tax credit is refundable whether one has taxes or not. The Federal tax credit of $7,500 would require 80K in income to be taken which also would result in income taxable of $2,400 additional taxes to Colorado, unless that was already the amount of income the individual living on 25K per year was going to take. You only get that income tax credit when you file your taxes and show you owe at least that much before other taxes and credits (non refundable).


IF one was on ACA then the tax credit loss in going from 25K to 80K of income for a family of 3 with two parents 37 years old and one child is $6,000 in lost tax credits for ACA a family of 3 would only pay $42 per month for ACA with 25K of income and $9,200 in lost subsidies to the deductible for a silver plan. So you would lose $15,200 in credits for ACA to get $13,500 in Green environmental tax credits in the year you did this.

But if you were already spending far more than 25K per year and instead were paying over 100K per year, and just pretending to live on 25 K per year, these tax credits on the Nissan Leaf make this an incredibly good deal and an interesting blog post.

Now the interesting part is for a family of 3 25K of income per year is tax free from federal taxes so the income tax saved would not be a real savings, as if you could live on 25K you could go another 33 years to age 70 without ever paying taxes. And Colorado uses federal tax income exemptions and deductions to decide on income tax so at 25K you pay no state taxes either.
Therefore the marginal rates as you add taxes from ACA, federal and Colorado as you go forward are very high indeed -with out tax credits you would pay $7,300 in Federal taxes $2,400 in state taxes and $6000 in ACA tax credits for the additional 55K of income (not even counting the lost $9,200 deductible help) for a 28.5% effective tax rate and if you have medical claims the total potential loss is $27,900 or an effective tax rate of 47 percent.
 
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I'm fine with him buying a new car. I think on balance it is consistent with his proclaimed beliefs. The only thing I would like to validate is that he includes the cost of the car in his budget. If so, he'd be over $25K per year in annual expenses.
It's not going to be included in his budget because he already said he's placing the vehicle into business.
 
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Mr. Money mustache is a fake early retirement blogger. He is a Ferb.

Mr. Money mustache is just a scam artist and he is encouraging the millennial generation to not work and just sponge off other people.

It's hilarious to hear some 30 something millennial talk about how stressful work Was during a ten-year career while they saved $1 million. The terrible commute. The stress from other coworkers and busy projects and deadlines.

I just really want to hang out at the park. Just throw my frisbee and do free stuff and live off $30,000 a year for the rest of my life because I know Vanguard will take care of me.

Hey look there's a unicorn!!!!!!
 
It's hilarious to hear some 30 something millennial talk about how stressful work Was during a ten-year career while they saved $1 million. The terrible commute. The stress from other coworkers and busy projects and deadlines.

Ha ha, I hear ya.

Kind of off topic... But my dad taught me a lesson the old fashioned way about this.

I started working (I was about 6 months in) and was bitching and griping about traffic, co-workers, etc. I mentioned the traffic thing a few too many times. I was in a smaller area of the South, where traffic clearly was not the same as Chicago (where dad worked).

He rarely got mad at me as an adult, but I pushed him over the line. He blew a gasket, raised his voice, swore a little and told me to never talk to him about traffic again.

The old fashioned method stuck with me. Later that year, as I drove on the Dan Ryan expressway while visiting, I realized just how right he was, and how many sacrifices he made for me. I was grateful to have the parents I had, and I (mostly) stopped bitching to them about my cushy engineering job.
 
Perhaps not as much, but on this site there are many examples of frugal people who have retired well off and have stated that they have a hard time loosening the purse strings.

That pretty much describes the millionaire next-door. People in the middle class to higher middle-class income range can easily become a millionaire by living a frugal lifestyle and saving money like a MaxSaver.

The millionaire next-door type saver is not going to all the sudden go crazy and spend all their money when they retire. It's a lifestyle choice that enable them to build wealth over a working career.
 
I think everyone should enjoy his or her money whatever they call themselves. I actually am glad Pete (I guess that's who really bought the car?) bought the little car. I was thinking about how ironic and sort of sad it must be to live in his alterego/persona's world and have amassed all this money from "not working" and famously and publicly living frugally, and then not being able to enjoy it--what if Mrs Pete really really wanted to go to a Michelin three star for a special occasion and drop several hundred dollars on the best meal ever? Do they sneak in wearing Groucho glasses as a disguise? Do they have to invite someone else to talk about the blog or whatever to qualify the dinner as a "business expense"? What if little Pete doesn't want to go to a community college and then a state university and live at home--can he go to a small private liberal arts school? Anyone who lives in the public eye is going to be scrutinized but if you make money by preaching not working and penny pinching, when do you get to enjoy the results without feeling the need to discuss and justify it (as he apparently has with this little car)? I guess he doesn't want to turn off his base, but it is an ironic situation imo. Irony and pity, as someone famous but who never blogged once said.
 
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I don't think he is a fraud. He did live extremely frugally. He did save a lot of $. His savings and part-time tinkerings could have allowed him to do that for a very long time. He started a blog. His blog, which I don't believe he really thought it would, ended up becoming immensely successful. Now he has even more choices available to him. And good for him to be able to enjoy his success a bit.
 
The Colorado tax credit is refundable whether one has taxes or not. The Federal tax credit of $7,500 would require 80K in income to be taken which also would result in income taxable of $2,400 additional taxes to Colorado, unless that was already the amount of income the individual living on 25K per year was going to take. You only get that income tax credit when you file your taxes and show you owe at least that much before other taxes and credits (non refundable).


IF one was on ACA then the tax credit loss in going from 25K to 80K of income for a family of 3 with two parents 37 years old and one child is $6,000 in lost tax credits for ACA a family of 3 would only pay $42 per month for ACA with 25K of income and $9,200 in lost subsidies to the deductible for a silver plan. So you would lose $15,200 in credits for ACA to get $13,500 in Green environmental tax credits in the year you did this.

But if you were already spending far more than 25K per year and instead were paying over 100K per year, and just pretending to live on 25 K per year, these tax credits on the Nissan Leaf make this an incredibly good deal and an interesting blog post.

Now the interesting part is for a family of 3 25K of income per year is tax free from federal taxes so the income tax saved would not be a real savings, as if you could live on 25K you could go another 33 years to age 70 without ever paying taxes. And Colorado uses federal tax income exemptions and deductions to decide on income tax so at 25K you pay no state taxes either.
Therefore the marginal rates as you add taxes from ACA, federal and Colorado as you go forward are very high indeed -with out tax credits you would pay $7,300 in Federal taxes $2,400 in state taxes and $6000 in ACA tax credits for the additional 55K of income (not even counting the lost $9,200 deductible help) for a 28.5% effective tax rate and if you have medical claims the total potential loss is $27,900 or an effective tax rate of 47 percent.

You seem to be conflating spending and income. Lots of us got to ER by spending far less than our income. But we still paid taxes on the income - not the spending.

MMM obviously has significant blog income - so the tax credit is REAL for him. If your point is that it might not be for another family that spends $25k and only has $25k of income - you are right... but they wouldn't be adding $16k (net after tax credits, etc) to their $25k/year spend.
 
He started a blog. His blog, which I don't believe he really thought it would, ended up becoming immensely successful. Now he has even more choices available to him. And good for him to be able to enjoy his success a bit.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if someone wanted to write a blog, couldn't they put it on a variety of servers/providers for free, and the provider gets to keep the ad revenue, while the blogger gets nothing (or very little)? Did MMM pursue this, or did MMM retain all decision making by using his own server, etc?

I guess it just comes down to authenticity. Some people don't think authenticity is a big deal, or being upfront and honest. Others place a higher importance on it.

So someone who tries to build an online persona of being ridiculously thrifty (sometimes to the point of well beyond cost effectiveness), sometimes SOLELY FOR THE PRINCIPLE of the matter, is later 'allowed' to enjoy a lifestyle far beyond the aesthetic budget and lifestyle he espoused (which was THE reason he even drew a following to begin with).

It's not MMM's "success" that people are grumbling about - it's the inconsistency and numbers that don't add up that strongly suggest he was never honest to begin with. That, coupled with the fact that if he truly was someone who lived and breathed what he claimed, he wouldn't need or want the blog revenue, and wouldn't need to retain ownership of the blog to control the ad revenue.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if someone wanted to write a blog, couldn't they put it on a variety of servers/providers for free, and the provider gets to keep the ad revenue, while the blogger gets nothing (or very little)? Did MMM pursue this, or did MMM retain all decision making by using his own server, etc?

I guess it just comes down to authenticity. Some people don't think authenticity is a big deal, or being upfront and honest. Others place a higher importance on it.

So someone who tries to build an online persona of being ridiculously thrifty (sometimes to the point of well beyond cost effectiveness), sometimes SOLELY FOR THE PRINCIPLE of the matter, is later 'allowed' to enjoy a lifestyle far beyond the aesthetic budget and lifestyle he espoused (which was THE reason he even drew a following to begin with).

It's not MMM's "success" that people are grumbling about - it's the inconsistency and numbers that don't add up that strongly suggest he was never honest to begin with. That, coupled with the fact that if he truly was someone who lived and breathed what he claimed, he wouldn't need or want the blog revenue, and wouldn't need to retain ownership of the blog to control the ad revenue.

It is true that you could host the blog somewhere for free and even not display ads at all. To be honest, I haven't paid much attention to his beginnings, other than a large number of people believe he did start off his FI aspect according to the story line.

And for those that haven't tried, it does actually take a considerable amount work to create a successful blog income. I enjoyed some success in that arena in years past. Short-story: it took six years to gain some decent traction and steady traffic.

And whether or not you need something, but through "happenstance" you build something successful, that with lots of work is somewhat duplicatable, I guess I don't have a problem with it. I guess I do believe he was a guy that originally lived frugally and could basically live off of 25K/yr.

c7 :O)
 
Mr. Money mustache is a fake early retirement blogger. He is a Ferb.

Mr. Money mustache is just a scam artist and he is encouraging the millennial generation to not work and just sponge off other people.

It's hilarious to hear some 30 something millennial talk about how stressful work Was during a ten-year career while they saved $1 million. The terrible commute. The stress from other coworkers and busy projects and deadlines.

I just really want to hang out at the park. Just throw my frisbee and do free stuff and live off $30,000 a year for the rest of my life because I know Vanguard will take care of me.


Hey look there's a unicorn!!!!!!


So what's wrong with enjoying a leisurely low cost life if you have the assets to at a young age? Does turning 45/50/55/65/70 suddenly entitle one to those things whereas younger than such a threshold an individual MUST work? If I had the ability to make X number of dollars from my investments at an early age and live what I deem to be a fulfilling life why would I work? At some point enough is enough.
 
So what's wrong with enjoying a leisurely low cost life if you have the assets to at a young age? Does turning 45/50/55/65/70 suddenly entitle one to those things whereas younger than such a threshold an individual MUST work? If I had the ability to make X number of dollars from my investments at an early age and live what I deem to be a fulfilling life why would I work? At some point enough is enough.
I agree, and I think purplesky's comments diluted the focus of the thread somewhat. Most of those who don't like MMM's approach feel as such because of a perceived dishonesty in the way he presents himself, and not because he ceased performing traditional work early.

Personally, I don't like the arrogance of the persona he has created. I'm free to find him annoying though, and choose to ignore him, just as others are free to think he's the bee's knees.
 
Yea what makes him very smart is that he makes sh*tload of money by pretending to live on 30k a year :)

Hmmm something like that should be my second career/hobby when I FIRE.
 
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It is true that you could host the blog somewhere for free and even not display ads at all. To be honest, I haven't paid much attention to his beginnings, other than a large number of people believe he did start off his FI aspect according to the story line.

And for those that haven't tried, it does actually take a considerable amount work to create a successful blog income. I enjoyed some success in that arena in years past. Short-story: it took six years to gain some decent traction and steady traffic.

And whether or not you need something, but through "happenstance" you build something successful, that with lots of work is somewhat duplicatable, I guess I don't have a problem with it. I guess I do believe he was a guy that originally lived frugally and could basically live off of 25K/yr.

c7 :O)


Your post then goes into the other side of the coin.... did he retire at all... or did he just change jobs and worked hard to become a blogger and is reaping the rewards big time now....
 
Weather or not he (they) are retired does not concern me.

What would concern me is if he blogs about "frugal living" on 25 grand a year and actually spends a quarter mill a year having big fun then it's all crap. Caca. Basura.

A big pack of lies.
 
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