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Old 10-21-2018, 10:29 AM   #21
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MMM is not entirely a new concept. I know he's been around awhile but I understand he's making a nice income on his blog and possibly some other outside sources. He preaches just as Suzy does. The living frugally concept came over with Europeans through Ellis Island. My grandparents, my DH grandparents. Frugal? How about raising your own chickens, pigs and vegetable garden. Grocery store? Not much. Clothes? Not much. And clothes were high quality and lasted decades, much like my clothes today. Houses were tiny. My mom grew up in a tiny house in the suburbs of Chicago. Six kids. One of them slept in the bathtub. She had a happy close family except my GF drank too much. My uncle traveled on box cars, all over the country as a young man. He hopped trains LOL. They all ended up FI in their later years. Figured out how to cut corners in every way. Crazy materialism came after WWII. The country was in a boom after the crash. We're just rethinking the "old" way of living.
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Old 10-21-2018, 11:59 AM   #22
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I retired 10 years ago (at age 45) and had $600k in my taxable account (and $230k in a rollover IRA), the only source of money to support me for ~15 years. Other than the trivial ACA subsidy (~$500 per year), my HI has not been subsidized, and I was paying full freight prior to 2014.
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Old 10-21-2018, 12:06 PM   #23
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It also depends on the location of residence too. May not be possible in some HCOL in California.

But I’m thinking every 7 years, the amount that you need tend to double.
So in 2000, you need $500k, in 2008, you need $1 million, in 2018, that might be $2 million. Plus retiring in a bull market like 2000 and 2008, the amount might be reduced after the crash. So if you retire now, it might be reduced in the future.
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Old 10-21-2018, 12:14 PM   #24
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But Iím thinking every 7 years, the amount that you need tend to double.
So in 2000, you need $500k, in 2008, you need $1 million, in 2018, that might be $2 million. Plus retiring in a bull market like 2000 and 2008, the amount might be reduced after the crash. So if you retire now, it might be reduced in the future.
In round numbers inflation has been 50% since 2000, so $500K is ~$750K, not $2 mil. Maybe a little higher for CPI-E but nowhere near doubling every 7 years.
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Old 10-21-2018, 12:18 PM   #25
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In round numbers inflation has been 50% since 2000, so $500K is ~$750K, not $2 mil. Maybe a little higher for CPI-E but nowhere near doubling every 7 years.
In theory yes, but I doubt if anybody here is brave enough to retire on that amount. Thatís like $28k per year for ER.
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Old 10-21-2018, 12:28 PM   #26
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About 10 years ago, then in our late 40s with a middle-schooler, I figured that an as-is, where is retirement in the DC suburbs with no pension would take roughly $5 million.

So, the figure isn't as crazy as it sounds.
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Old 10-21-2018, 04:06 PM   #27
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I think this is for folks who want to retire extremely early, and are willing to be extremely frugal to do so and live a frugal lifestyle all their lives. Itís an option.
I believe there are some folks for whom any lifestyle, however meager, is preferable to having to get up in the morning and going to work.

I'm related to a few of them! (on DW's side)
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Old 10-21-2018, 04:19 PM   #28
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I believe there are some folks for whom any lifestyle, however meager, is preferable to having to get up in the morning and going to work.

I'm related to a few of them! (on DW's side)
Well there is also the philosophy of living a minimalist lifestyle. That appeals to some folks.
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Old 10-21-2018, 04:23 PM   #29
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The minimalist people I know has been living off his mom’s house, serves at a soup kitchen sometimes, siblings have to pay for his dental. Refused to work for some reasons.
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Old 10-21-2018, 04:31 PM   #30
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Used to like Ms Orman, but she has become tiresome for me. While I’m sure she and anyone in her business has seen many cases where retired ran into a problem and didn’t have as much left they had counted on, I have come to realize that even in retirement stuff happens and you have to adjust. Happens all through your working years so why would you expect that it will stop once you retire.

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That's it! In life, FIRE'd or not, "stuff happens and you have to adjust". Seems obvious...

With FI, "adjustment" typically yields more palatable options though.
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Old 10-21-2018, 04:32 PM   #31
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About 10 years ago, then in our late 40s with a middle-schooler, I figured that an as-is, where is retirement in the DC suburbs with no pension would take roughly $5 million.

So, the figure isn't as crazy as it sounds.
Well yes and no. For many of us who had good salaries than replacing those salaries (say $200K) then yes on the surface you'd need $5 million.

But with lower taxes and no need for saving the actual income needs are lower.

But more importantly, even for really HCOL place like DC, SF Bay Area, or NYC. The median household income is $100-120K . Once you figure in the lower taxes and expense associated with retirement, a 2-3 million stash lets you have an average lifestyle. Maybe somewhat below average for $2 million. But really $2 million plus a paid off house is enough for middle-class lifestyle pretty much anywhere. But obviously middle class isn't enough for Suze Orman.
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Old 10-21-2018, 05:07 PM   #32
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Well there is also the philosophy of living a minimalist lifestyle. That appeals to some folks.
I understand both analyses perfectly. I am one of those minimalists. It doesn't take much to be happy and feel secure. But marko's relatives might be related to some of mine. There might be a fine line between minimalist contentment and just being a bum or refusing to consider the vicissitudes of life. I could not live with myself if I were the latter. The former, I'm OK with.
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Old 10-21-2018, 05:10 PM   #33
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4. You can be happy on ANY level of spending
No, that's too simple.
This is better:

Quote:
I can survive at a very low (by US standards) income.
I might enjoy life more with a higher income.
Barring overwhelming medical or economic situations, we each make a decision on when the positives from a year on non-working time exceed the positives from spending a year's more wages.

There are things that money can buy that might be worth the extra work.
I might prefer spending my last years in a nice, private-pay old folks home instead of in a Medicaid only facility.
I might enjoy traveling to Europe or Alaska or the Virgin Islands or the western US national parks instead of staying home.
I might enjoy being able to help some people who've had bad financial luck - possibly relatives.
I might prefer going to bed knowing I have more financial cushion than going to bed feeling that I've cut is pretty close.

Or not.

I probably retired on less than most people here, but I had enough for a few things that looked like luxuries to me.
MMM seems too quick to set priorities for other people.
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Old 10-21-2018, 05:14 PM   #34
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We are not minimalists, but could be if we need to. There are a lot of things we can cut out, and it does not make life miserable for us, such as travel, gifts/donations, and the 2nd home.

I have always liked to have more money than I spend. The higher the margin, the more serenity it provides, so that our mind is free to think of other things, such as what new dish we want to try to make, and what is the best way to do a certain aspect of my hobby DIY home energy storage system.
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Old 10-21-2018, 05:27 PM   #35
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But marko's relatives might be related to some of mine. There might be a fine line between minimalist contentment and just being a bum or refusing to consider the vicissitudes of life. I could not live with myself if I were the latter. The former, I'm OK with.
+1
Hey cuz!
Yes that's what I was referring to...those on the other side of that fine line.
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Old 10-21-2018, 05:51 PM   #36
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MMM seems too quick to set priorities for other people.

That's the same problem I have with Suze. But it's like the economic prognosticators - the surer they sound the more eye balls they get. The more eyeballs they get, the even more eyeballs they get.
Thought with an explanation of how it could be different gets you no where.
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Old 10-21-2018, 06:32 PM   #37
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I have always liked to have more money than I spend. The higher the margin, the more serenity it provides, so that our mind is free to think of other things, such as what new dish we want to try to make, and what is the best way to do a certain aspect of my hobby DIY home energy storage system.
I like that feeling, too. I wouldn't feel good retiring on a very low amount with no margin for error, but I'm okay with saving more than we might spend and having a cushion.
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Old 10-21-2018, 06:49 PM   #38
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I've always identified with the frugal/minimalist folks. Back when I first got into it, 20-30 years ago, it was called "voluntary simplicity." I am not as radical about it as some people, but I live that way. Way below my means, pretty simple/humble, no keeping up with the Joneses. That's a big reason I'm FIRE.

I don't see how the MMM crowd covers health insurance on 500K total, though. That seems pretty risky, given that you're retiring at, say, 40, and you've got 25 years of payments and rapidly rising healthcare costs. Maybe I'll ask on their forum.
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Old 10-21-2018, 07:16 PM   #39
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If they don’t have much income HI is free isn’t it, well almost.
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Old 10-21-2018, 07:18 PM   #40
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MMM is not entirely a new concept. I know he's been around awhile but I understand he's making a nice income on his blog and possibly some other outside sources. He preaches just as Suzy does.
^This.

Many of these bloggers preaching FIRE are actually using their blogs to supplement their income.
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