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Old 09-07-2007, 07:44 AM   #121
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Brewer, as my mother would have said, there is no need to lower yourself to his level....
You guys can feel free to try to teach the pig to sing. In the meantime, I will be climbing into the sty with a hog castrator at the ready.
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Old 09-07-2007, 07:46 AM   #122
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You guys can feel free to try to teach the pig to sing. In the meantime, I will be climbing into the sty with a hog castrator at the ready.
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Old 09-07-2007, 07:52 AM   #123
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...as a "newer" member of the forum, I won't accept second hand status.
Basic law of the jungle: As an anonymous poster on an internet forum, whatever status you attain is directly proportional to the content, quality and civility of your posts.
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Old 09-07-2007, 09:06 AM   #124
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GUMBY, Martha, et al: This dialectic commenced when I responded to the normative comment by BARB...in which the poster asserted that so many of the members of this forum make six figures and view it as an inherrent right to do so, and that it must be due to something beyond our control. If you viewed my posted reponse, I did take umbrage with that, but also encouraged him/her. Next thing I know Martha is inferring that I fail to recognize and allow redress of certain inequities and am told to not give me that pull up by own bootstraps "stuff." Then Gumby questions even the size of my heart, charitably spoken.

Recognizing that every person is unique, and thus, so is his or her story, and to postulate, that becasue one can do it, all can is poor logic. But, the dialectic, to be learned from anecdotal stories, such as my own, which is a "bootstrap" story, (parents didn't graduate from high school; I worked in the same sawmill/lumber yard/truss plant that my father died in), as a roofer, laid asphalt, U.S. Air Force, night classes at local community colleges; post USAF discharge as a firefighter in Fairfax County, VA; finished B.S. in Health Care Administration magna cum laude (phi beta kappa); worked up the food chain to become a hospital president; returned to school while my son was an infant to earn MBA with highest honors (phi kappa phi); wrote graduate textbook with then Dean of MBA, now College President; became a tenured professor at top southern liberal arts university; went to law school at U.TN; Medical School at U.A.B. (third in class, but felt stifled by the regimen of private practice, the intent was to "take over" my father-in-law's opthalmology practice) one year as a missionary in BAcold City, Republic of Phillipines and Bandung, Indonesia, when I quit, and people questioned my sanity for doing so, I worked for six months as a security guard at a local lime pit, in order to get my head together and plan my next move, and I actually rather enjoyed the solitude; like(d) investing better. What do I do now? Iteach at a small private school at which 70-80% of the students come from the inner-city and can't afford to pay the tuition, so we "help."No bona fide vitae right?

The secret predictor of success, is that there is no predictor. WE all know individuals born with what the general consensus would agree "all" of the advantages, and have watched them crash and burn, all the while wonddring what went wrong and what can we do to help. Like wise, those of humble, even some might say disadvantaged socio-economic circumstances rise to great heights. Dr. Ben Carson, Johns Hopkins neuro-surgeon, first to separate siamese twins joined cephalically, is an acquaintance of mine, and such an individual (read his biography Helping Hands). Onca again, is it nature or nurture?

I determined that the latter is the one thing we can do something about. I am not referring to the outlier, the person with the I.Q. of 85. But, to the one with an I.Q. of 100 who is waiting for something to happen for them, rather than them happening to it! Accepting responsiblity for the outcomes reasonably associated with decisions under the individuals control. We cannot control, or hardly influence, exogenous, macro events, we can decide to study hard, work hard, be honest, etc.. That's not bravo sierra hombre.We're are not talking MENSA here, rather success as a person; all of the Maslow higher needs, and a buy product, for those who make it a priority, will probably a modicum of financial independence. Many academic studies, and replicated for mass consumption by Danko and Stanley in The Millionaire Next Door, support my basic thesis.

So, here we are. Perhaps it was the nuance and we actually all agree on the big issues, perhaps not, but as a "newer" member of the forum, I won't accept second hand status.

Let's be friends.
Smart people don't tell everyone how smart they are..........
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Old 09-07-2007, 09:38 AM   #125
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Let's be friends.
Now that we have each stated our positions, I think it best if we just call it a day. I hope that we can have more constructive discussions in the future.
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Old 09-07-2007, 10:57 AM   #126
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That's about ten years ago. When my wife and I came to America, we had $1200 at hand. That's it. We both got accepted at graduate school. The school would be open around three months later. Tuition is around 12k/semester(for two people).

My wife started to work the second day. 10 hour/day. She quit her job at the Saturday before school open. Take one day break, then start her graduate study. No weekend off, no even public holiday off.

What I say, that's a great country, but you got to work very hard.
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Old 09-07-2007, 10:59 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by hayekcapitalist View Post
Recognizing that every person is unique, and thus, so is his or her story, and to postulate, that becasue one can do it, all can is poor logic. But, the dialectic, to be learned from anecdotal stories, such as my own, which is a "bootstrap" story, (parents didn't graduate from high school; I worked in the same sawmill/lumber yard/truss plant that my father died in), as a roofer, laid asphalt, U.S. Air Force, night classes at local community colleges; post USAF discharge as a firefighter in Fairfax County, VA; finished B.S. in Health Care Administration magna cum laude (phi beta kappa); worked up the food chain to become a hospital president; returned to school while my son was an infant to earn MBA with highest honors (phi kappa phi); wrote graduate textbook with then Dean of MBA, now College President; became a tenured professor at top southern liberal arts university; went to law school at U.TN; Medical School at U.A.B. (third in class, but felt stifled by the regimen of private practice, the intent was to "take over" my father-in-law's opthalmology practice) one year as a missionary in BAcold City, Republic of Phillipines and Bandung, Indonesia, when I quit, and people questioned my sanity for doing so, I worked for six months as a security guard at a local lime pit, in order to get my head together and plan my next move, and I actually rather enjoyed the solitude; like(d) investing better. What do I do now? Iteach at a small private school at which 70-80% of the students come from the inner-city and can't afford to pay the tuition, so we "help."No bona fide vitae right?
Have you paid off your student loans yet?
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Old 09-07-2007, 11:13 AM   #128
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. . .what mail-in law school failed to teach her the U.S. Declaration of Independence.

. . .Just what the world needs more of, lawyers and their partners: at least she's retired.


It's this sort of ad hominem arguendo that makes forums tedious.
Yup.

I skipped over this thread for a few days and should call it a day as Gumby suggests. But. . .

If you want a "dialectic" as you have called this discussion, then the Rudy Giuliani method of in your face argument is not very effective.

Class status as a predictor of success is almost a forbidden topic in the US. Unfortunately, there is evidence that movement between classes in the US has diminished over the years. Some time ago I read an article in the WSJ that said of the "rich" countries, people are least likely to be born poor and move into the middle or upper class if they are from the United States or Britain. In contrast, Canada and the Nordic countries are the most mobile societies. A reprint that doesn't require a WSJ subscription can be found here: As rich-poor gap widens in U.S., class mobility stalls

(Now, I have to go back to puzzling over e=mc something or other)
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Old 09-09-2007, 04:46 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by hayekcapitalist View Post
GUMBY, Martha, et al: This dialectic commenced when I responded to the normative comment by BARB...in which the poster asserted that so many of the members of this forum make six figures and view it as an inherrent right to do so, and that it must be due to something beyond our control. If you viewed my posted reponse, I did take umbrage with that, but also encouraged him/her. Next thing I know Martha is inferring that I fail to recognize and allow redress of certain inequities and am told to not give me that pull up by own bootstraps "stuff." Then Gumby questions even the size of my heart, charitably spoken.

Recognizing that every person is unique, and thus, so is his or her story, and to postulate, that becasue one can do it, all can is poor logic. But, the dialectic, to be learned from anecdotal stories, such as my own, which is a "bootstrap" story, (parents didn't graduate from high school; I worked in the same sawmill/lumber yard/truss plant that my father died in), as a roofer, laid asphalt, U.S. Air Force, night classes at local community colleges; post USAF discharge as a firefighter in Fairfax County, VA; finished B.S. in Health Care Administration magna cum laude (phi beta kappa); worked up the food chain to become a hospital president; returned to school while my son was an infant to earn MBA with highest honors (phi kappa phi); wrote graduate textbook with then Dean of MBA, now College President; became a tenured professor at top southern liberal arts university; went to law school at U.TN; Medical School at U.A.B. (third in class, but felt stifled by the regimen of private practice, the intent was to "take over" my father-in-law's opthalmology practice) one year as a missionary in BAcold City, Republic of Phillipines and Bandung, Indonesia, when I quit, and people questioned my sanity for doing so, I worked for six months as a security guard at a local lime pit, in order to get my head together and plan my next move, and I actually rather enjoyed the solitude; like(d) investing better. What do I do now? Iteach at a small private school at which 70-80% of the students come from the inner-city and can't afford to pay the tuition, so we "help."No bona fide vitae right?

The secret predictor of success, is that there is no predictor. WE all know individuals born with what the general consensus would agree "all" of the advantages, and have watched them crash and burn, all the while wonddring what went wrong and what can we do to help. Like wise, those of humble, even some might say disadvantaged socio-economic circumstances rise to great heights. Dr. Ben Carson, Johns Hopkins neuro-surgeon, first to separate siamese twins joined cephalically, is an acquaintance of mine, and such an individual (read his biography Helping Hands). Onca again, is it nature or nurture?

I determined that the latter is the one thing we can do something about. I am not referring to the outlier, the person with the I.Q. of 85. But, to the one with an I.Q. of 100 who is waiting for something to happen for them, rather than them happening to it! Accepting responsiblity for the outcomes reasonably associated with decisions under the individuals control. We cannot control, or hardly influence, exogenous, macro events, we can decide to study hard, work hard, be honest, etc.. That's not bravo sierra hombre.We're are not talking MENSA here, rather success as a person; all of the Maslow higher needs, and a buy product, for those who make it a priority, will probably a modicum of financial independence. Many academic studies, and replicated for mass consumption by Danko and Stanley in The Millionaire Next Door, support my basic thesis.

So, here we are. Perhaps it was the nuance and we actually all agree on the big issues, perhaps not, but as a "newer" member of the forum, I won't accept second hand status.

Let's be friends.

Unfortunately, as an editor, I have little choice but to mention that the above is exactly the sort of text that makes me deeply regret the lexicographical ambitions of Peter Roget.

The only thing worse than an unintelligent writer is a writer just intelligent enough to employ big words for the sake of employing big words, and to relish convolution for the sake of convolution.

Stop the madness. Put the thesaurus down and write what you know.

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Old 09-09-2007, 10:36 PM   #130
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Well, where to start?

As I'm sure you are aware, the Declaration of Independence sets forth the reasons for separating from England. It contains soaring aspirational rhetoric drafted by Thomas Jefferson -- "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal . . etc., etc. " -- but it does not govern our polity. That function falls to the US Constitution.

Moreover, the Declaration means simply that all people are equal in the eyes of the law. The religious among us would also say that we are all equally children of God. But the fact remains that as much as the law and the Lord accords each of us equal dignity, we are not and have never been born with equal ability, nor equal opportunity. As Laurence points out, some of us have "won life's lottery". Others have not been so lucky.

I will not disagree with you that hard work is necessary condition to success in our economic and political system. Yet, while necessary, it is not sufficient in and of itself. There are those who are not born healthy, white and male citizens of this great country. Those who are born to parents who can't or don't want to properly care for them, in neighborhoods where they will not receive a decent education. Some will fall victim to terrible diseases through no fault of their own. These people can work as hard as anyone could ask, yet many of them will still not find success in life.

It is my belief (and, by reading her posts, I think that Martha shares it to a certain extent) that part of the social compact is that those of us who have succeeded in our particular economic and political system have obligations to those who have not been able to succeed in that system. After all, if we had an alternative system, I may well have been unsuccessful. It has been said that the mark of a great society is how well it treats its weakest members. I agree. Right now, society treats me well, but it does not treat all well.

Based on your posts and your screen name, you appear to espouse an extreme libertarian view. It has been my experience with libertarians that they never acknowledge all the things that have been done for them in life. As Ann Richards once said about George H.W. Bush, "he was born on third base and thinks he hit a triple". Neither do they acknowledge all the areas in which collective action is not only useful but absolutely necessary (think environmental protection, immunizations, the court system, transportation, and space exploration as examples). In short, the libertarian view appears to be "I got mine, screw you," which seems to me to be the mark of an incredibly cramped and barren soul. I simply cannot believe that most people would be happy in a Hobbesian world of all against all.

With respect to my IQ comment, it was simply my way of saying that, in my observation, Martha appears to be very, very intelligent. I do not know you and cannot say whether her IQ would be 50 points higher than yours. To that extent, my comment was an unwarranted ad hominem atttack, for which I apologize. But I will never agree with your philosophy.

Lastly, although I find myself in agreement with her on almost every point, please be assured that Martha hardly needs me to "argue her cases for her".
Gumby, this is a great post! One of the best I've read on here.
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Old 09-10-2007, 03:48 PM   #131
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I've nominated this imbecile for the annual Darwin Award.
Hope he is not reproducing.
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Old 09-10-2007, 07:18 PM   #132
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Yes I am:
One son at the U.S. Naval Academy another in Med School at Vandy: which part did you disagree with?
the part where St. Martha stated "them's fightin words" and then sits back and lets her lackeys do her lapping for her, or the part about self-determination, or ther part where I encouraged
Barb...?

Apparently it doesn't matter to those drinking downstream from this herd.

How insular and in-bred is this forum: anyone challenges your ill-conceived preconceptions and you attack the person. It's safe in the middle herd, just don't get separated from them, or you won't know which way to run.
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Old 09-10-2007, 07:46 PM   #133
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Yes I am:
One son at the U.S. Naval Academy another in Med School at Vandy: which part did you disagree with?
the part where St. Martha stated "them's fightin words" and then sits back and lets her lackeys do her lapping for her, or the part about self-determination, or ther part where I encouraged
Barb...?

Apparently it doesn't matter to those drinking downstream from this herd.

How insular and in-bred is this forum: anyone challenges your ill-conceived preconceptions and you attack the person. It's safe in the middle herd, just don't get separated from them, or you won't know which way to run.
Flaming out right on schedule.
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Old 09-12-2007, 10:32 PM   #134
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Hey, what's all this trashing of 85 IQs?

C'mon-85 is considered average. See

IQ reference chart - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

besides....I'm quite sure a person of 85 IQ could be (or has been) elected president with the right machinery behind him!
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