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Re: More Doom and Gloom
Old 02-11-2005, 12:01 AM   #21
 
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Re: More Doom and Gloom

We all are still entitled to our opinions (at least for now).
I never ran a large corp., but I did work for one late in my career and was CEO of several smaller corps.
before that. Thus, I tend to cut corporate America a lot of slack. Besides, whatever they do can't be nearly
as damaging as what my government does routinely
and on a much more massive scale. We need more politicians in jail and less CEOs. End of rant...................

JG
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Re: More Doom and Gloom
Old 02-11-2005, 05:38 AM   #22
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Re: More Doom and Gloom

Quote:
was CEO of several smaller corps.
before that. *...................

JG
Now that you've brought it up, I've always wondered how big were these corporations? 1 employee, 5, 10, 1000. Makes a big difference and speaks to the validity of your arguments.

Thanks for your candid response, JG.

Judy
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Re: More Doom and Gloom
Old 02-11-2005, 05:50 AM   #23
 
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Re: More Doom and Gloom

Okay Judy. Fair question.
Those where I was President/CEO are as follows:

Paper products Manufacturing 250 employees
Defense Contractor 250 employees
Defense Contractor 15 employees

The last place I drew a paycheck was maybe
2,000 employees (I was CFO). Not exactly IBM,
but still........................

JG
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Re: More Doom and Gloom
Old 02-11-2005, 07:50 AM   #24
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Re: More Doom and Gloom

I've been in the military where the unit commander didn't know we were routinely not manning critical posts. According to our written directives he had to be notified of any shortfalls. Since I was Ass't Shift leader myself and the shift leader were constantly complaining to our boss to give us bodies. We started monitoring other shifts and discovered they had many extra people. one day the commander checked in with me and the shift leader. Of course being the good commander he was asked if we needed anything. The shift leader said YES bodies. The commander told us to continue posting mininmum until our deployed people returned. The shift leader said fine give us bodies we can't post minimum. A couple days later I got ripped because my boss talked to the commander and he wanted us to have more bodies.

The point is a person in the top spot does not always get told what is going on at the lower levels. I don't think any of the CEO's mentioned were left entirely out of the loop but without access to the evidence presented I can't decide how much they knew. They are prolly using the "Idunno" excuse to try and get out of trouble. I think it is a weak excuse.
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Re: More Doom and Gloom
Old 02-11-2005, 08:29 AM   #25
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Re: More Doom and Gloom

Quote:
. . .
The point is a person in the top spot does not always get told what is going on at the lower levels. *. .
I agree. Some of the weak CEOs I worked for tended to punish the messenger. Rather than reward honesty when it wasn't what they wanted to hear, they pushed these people aside. Before long they were incredibly ill-informed. They did not know what was really going on. And that's their fault. These people weren't earning their money and deserve whatever punishment they get.

The strong CEOs I worked for were very good at rewarding factual, important information -- regardless of whether it was good or bad. They recognized that they could address issues if they knew about them, and they did not fear that challenge. It was what they didn't hear about that could hurt them. These people earned their money and are not in the position of having to defend themselves with the "I didn't know what was going on" argument.
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Lemme get this straight...
Old 02-11-2005, 12:35 PM   #26
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Lemme get this straight...

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Please excuse me if I offend, but you people who are so critical of perceived corporate misdeeds probably have no idea of what it is like to actually run a company. JG
So, John, you're saying that we have to run a company before we can understand the principles of honesty, ethics, responsibility, & accountability?

I guess that would explain why CEOs are paid so much more...
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Re: More Doom and Gloom
Old 02-11-2005, 01:40 PM   #27
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Re: More Doom and Gloom

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TH:

Though I was an executive in several large corporations, I still believe that any company, when it starts systematic employee abuse thats deliberate and culpable, should not only be accountable in the civil courts, but stand to lose its corporate charter, which is the corporate equivalent of the death penalty. .
Lex, I think the CEOs should go to jail, but destroying the company (unless it is so riddled with corruption that it is really hopeless) is going to destroy the retirement benefits and prospects of a lot more worthy people, to say nothing of the livelihoods of everyone working there.

It does make you wonder if the corporate pension is really just dying its last gasps. a) who knows how long a company is going to be around ? Give me my 401k and you guys can do whatever you want -- i've got a long retirement ahead of me and b) with people shafting you to get rid of you or at best forgetting about you within about a month of your leaving the organization, why should we think that decades later their successorss successors will care one whit about us, or be willing to suffer earnings losses and bonus reductions in order to pay our expensiive health care benefits or pensions?
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Re: More Doom and Gloom
Old 02-11-2005, 02:12 PM   #28
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Re: More Doom and Gloom

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They are prolly using the "Idunno" excuse to try and get out of trouble. I think it is a weak excuse.
The Prime Minister and former Prime Minister of Canada are using Idunno a lot the last two days. I think they both should be in jail but may be the best of a poor lot.

Bruce
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Re: More Doom and Gloom
Old 02-11-2005, 02:14 PM   #29
 
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Re: More Doom and Gloom

And still more whining..................

JG
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Re: More Doom and Gloom
Old 02-11-2005, 03:01 PM   #30
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Re: More Doom and Gloom

Yep, everyone at Intel does get a cubicle, even the chairman and ceo.

But they get BIG cubicles.

Considering I've acted as interrim CEO of several of one of my former employers venture capital investments that werent working out, I can say I have a little CEO experience...not enron or worldcom size companies to be sure.

My understanding of these misdeeds however are that they were widespread, deep, and if the CEO didnt know anything about them...well he's a moron, clueless, blind, deaf and dumb. Or simply a big fat liar.

I'm gonna go with "big fat liar".

Even as an interrim guy, I think I'd have known if we were cooking the books on a multi billion dollar scale, or if we were gaming the system to cause shortages and boost revenues by factors of 10 and 100.

But hey John, sure, every CEO of a $50B company doesnt know what some salesguy in Calgary is or isnt doing. He sure as **** better know what the CFO and a bunch of his VP's are doing. And perhaps have some grasp on how they managed to make a lot more money than they should have.
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Re: More Doom and Gloom
Old 02-11-2005, 03:55 PM   #31
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Re: More Doom and Gloom

ESRBob:

OK, I would agree that suspending a Corporate Charter would punish the innocent employees when there is gross misconduct by a Corporation's senior staff towards its employees. *

Perhaps allowing that no one employee, inlcuding management, is immune from personal civil liability for outrageous emotional abuse or economic extortion would help check this type of non-sense. If the conduct would not be permissable if one person did it to another outside of an employer employee relationship, do not allow an abusive manager to hide behind the corporation to get away with the same conduct. * Let a judge and jury hear the matter and hold individuals accountable for their abusive and outrageous acts to those least able to protect themselves from emotional abuse and economic extortion. *

I have worked in a corporation that hired a "re-engineering" consultant that would hold meetings and verbally insult employees before their entire departments with language that, had this been an exchange between two people on the street, would have been fighting words and defamatory. *What do you do. *Yes, you can quit. *But the objective here was to make a certain number of employees do just that, and avoid severance programs due to a "voluntary" departure by the targeted employee. *It was as if we were in a Maoist Re-education camp. *I am not kidding. *I would preferred that this senior management group be held liable for tortious verbal and defamatory employee abuse, and the shareholders be fully informed as to the way this company treated its employees.

I would welcome others to cite similar conduct. *
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Re: More Doom and Gloom
Old 02-11-2005, 05:35 PM   #32
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Re: More Doom and Gloom

The Emperor Has No Clothes

One weekend there was a major incident. On Monday local management was asked to explain to company management. Local management decided to have meetings on Tuesday & Wednesday. Everyone was invited including people on their day off. The local manager opened the meeting. I realized about 2 minutes into the opening that he had no idea how the incident COULD have developed.

The rest of the managers acted like they were in the boardroom on The Apprentice everyone trying to cover their own. During open discussion several times I spoke each time before I sat down the same person was up challenging what I had just said. This surprised even the manager. Apparently he was following the manager. About every 3 years management would change & bring in their own people.

This manager was not a PITA his downfall was trusting people who had their own agenda. He still should of been out & about more & paid more attention to repetitive maintenance work orders which would of signaled a larger problem.
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Re: More Doom and Gloom
Old 02-13-2005, 01:05 PM   #33
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Re: More Doom and Gloom

LEX, S.O. is well known for it's shakem loose moves. Years ago they had a invoice processing office in Portland (back in the key-punch days) which had an aging workforce. They moved the office. Too many old folks followed so they moved it again a couple years later.
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Re: More Doom and Gloom
Old 02-13-2005, 03:08 PM   #34
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Re: More Doom and Gloom

It is amazing what companies get away with.

Build a company off the labor and skill of dedicated employees, then take them out back and shoot them once they age or annoy the ruling elite. *Sounds like the Stalinist School of Management.
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Re: More Doom and Gloom
Old 02-13-2005, 03:58 PM   #35
 
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Re: More Doom and Gloom

And still more whining

JG
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Re: More Doom and Gloom
Old 02-13-2005, 06:33 PM   #36
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Re: More Doom and Gloom

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And still more whining
and you're still playing that same ol broken record

MJ
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Re: More Doom and Gloom
Old 02-13-2005, 06:55 PM   #37
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Re: More Doom and Gloom

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And still more whining * *
JG
JG, you must really enjoy pushing people's tolerance. I hope it gives you immense pleasure, right up there with your incessant bragging.

Mikey
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Re: More Doom and Gloom
Old 02-13-2005, 08:25 PM   #38
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Re: More Doom and Gloom

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And still more whining * *

JG
Typical
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Re: More Doom and Gloom
Old 02-14-2005, 03:34 AM   #39
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Re: More Doom and Gloom

JG - Spoken like a true Republican. You'd rather hide you head in the sand and let these bastards get away with it. Just like you're buddy G. Dubya who will never say he's wrong about anything. You'll probably be the first to whine when he takes your SS away from you. What the hell, you probably didn't pay into it anyways being the big CEo that you were... not.
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Re: More Doom and Gloom
Old 02-14-2005, 05:38 AM   #40
 
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Re: More Doom and Gloom

Well, someone has to defend all of the greedy
executives/corporations/capitalists. Where do you people think the jobs come from? The government
can't employ all of you. I do enjoy pushing your
buttons though. I surely do. Sometimes I wish the
responses were a bit less strident and a bit more well
thought out. But, I just consider the source and move on.

JG
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