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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-03-2006, 01:53 PM   #41
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by kjpliny
I didn't say anything about people who reproduce, my post was geared at people who over-reproduce and can't afford it. Big difference. Take your argument to India or China and see for yourself what the results on civilization and the environment are...
In Hong Kong, the situation may have been changed since 1967. Back then, public schools were not free. People who could not afford public education sent their kids to work. As a result, illiteracy was widespread. My father struggled financially to pay tuition for 5 children. Luckily, our family immigrated to the U.S. and us 5 kids received free public education, which is the key to the future success of any nation. Education should be affordable to all. A free education at all levels is even better. I am puzzled about the disparity of costs among public universities. The range of tuition is wide: $3,000 to $15,000 (in-state tuition). Why is some college like South Dakota School of Mines can charge $5,326 (in-resident), $6,520 (non-resident) and $6,880 (Minnesota resident **) for tuition while University of Minnesota charges $9,400? The room and board fee is twice as much also. I understand there are many factors:
1. Funding from the state or the federal government.
2. Private funding
3. The size of endowment
4. Operating cost of running the school

I would think that a state, such as Minnesota, with high tax-rate and a lots of companies should be able to collect large tax revenue to fund its university system. Why does the tuition charged by the public universities in Minnesota become one of the most expensive in the nation? The universities claim inadequate funding while the state claims inefficient use of funding. Who is right?
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-03-2006, 02:24 PM   #42
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by LEX
My oldest son teaches electronics and computer science at a local vocational High School. .....

He could walk into any local Tech Firm and double his income. ....

I believe he is one of thousands of ordinary heros ....

Money is a poor gauge of what truly adds value in certain instances, teaching being but one of many examples.
That is one of the points I've tried to make here. Money is only part of the picture.

Your son could double his income, yet chooses not to. One could say that he is being compensated 'fairly', or he would change jobs. Maybe that total compensation is the time off, the benefits, the opportunity for tenure, or just being viewed as a hero. But some combination of those keeps him teaching at that salary. If enough people feel the same, there is no reason to raise that salary to what one would make at 'any local Tech Firm' - where he will work summers, more hours during the holidays, no chance for tenure, etc, etc, etc.

The local mega-corp tech firm I retired from now offers zero pension to new hires. Zero.

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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-03-2006, 03:34 PM   #43
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Re: More on teacher pay

Just to relay a story here about teacher pay..we have a small private school in our town. They will be retiring a math teacher who has taught at this school for 43 years (has a masters in math) and who made less than $33k last year while he could have made $45-$50k in the public school system in our town.

I believe he taught for the sake of teaching and not for $$$$$.

BTW, I had him as a teacher as did DD and he is a very good teacher.

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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-03-2006, 03:48 PM   #44
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Re: More on teacher pay

My SO is a new teacher and she and her friends don't consider themselves underpaid. To qualify for the state retirement, they have to stay in one place for 30 years, which makes it hard to relocate ( I think ).
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-03-2006, 03:57 PM   #45
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by youbet
I agree with you that funding needs to be distributed amongst the population. Today, public education in wealthy areas is funded at higher levels than in poor areas and that is just plain wrong.
And this will continue to be the case, so long as we continue to fund public education primarily with property taxes.
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-03-2006, 06:56 PM   #46
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by mathjak107
they forget how few days they actually work compared to regular jobs.

it drives me nuts hearing teachers around here complain about the pay and benefits. they got to be kidding.

Why oh why do you people expend your energy bashing public school teachers? This totally baffles me, as they are among the few working people in our society whose motivation is to make life better for all of us, kids and adults, through promoting education for all, which is the only way our democracy can thrive.
I can only conclude that you must have had some childhood school trauma. Maybe your English teacher treated you unfairly, as one did to me, or your Art teacher was a pervert or your math teacher made a mistake one time and you concluded he was incompetent.

Please take time to find out what it really means to teach in the public schools before you make lame, uneducated comments like the above quoted statement. You really have no idea what teaching is like these days. And how much they work, just like a regular job.
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-03-2006, 06:59 PM   #47
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by FIRE'd@51
And this will continue to be the case, so long as we continue to fund public education primarily with property taxes.
OTOH a great public school districts is one reason people are willing to pay high property taxes. How many people would put up with $10k annual property tax bills while sending their kids to a mediocre school?
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-03-2006, 07:30 PM   #48
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Re: More on teacher pay

I can understand those who are concerned with the cost/benefits of education, as well as most social programs.

If any of you would like to enjoy a society which has no associated tax or social obligations to support, might I suggest spending some time in central Africa, specifically the Sudan or the eastern Democratic Republic of Congo, or the outer Islands scatterd in Malaysia. There are many places where social overhead is minimal, pick one and try it out. There are no social programs, schools or working infrastucture to complain about. It would best to bring your own portable generator, first aid supplies, guns and ammunition since calling 911 is not an option. But there are none of those high paid civil servants around looking for another tax increase to fund their salaries!
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-03-2006, 08:40 PM   #49
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by Oldbabe

Quote:
Quote from: mathjak107 on December 02, 2006, 05:16:28 PM
they forget how few days they actually work compared to regular jobs.

it drives me nuts hearing teachers around here complain about the pay and benefits. they got to be kidding.

Why oh why do you people expend your energy bashing public school teachers?
Whoah! Watch the sweeping generalizations there with 'you people'. There really has not been much negative on this thread IMO, a few comments that teachers in some areas get some sweet benefits, and, yes, their pay/benefits include more time off than most in the public sector. Do you disagree?

Quote:
This totally baffles me, as they are among the few working people in our society whose motivation is to make life better for all of us,
I find that a bit insulting actually. No, I was not a teacher, but I think my work, and the work of many other people in other areas contributes to the common good. How would you like it if all your electronics gadgets were taken away, or if they did less and cost more than they did 20 years ago? I like the fact that I can hire a carpenter, or plumber or electrician for their expertise. And I'm glad we have people who are willing to work as garbage collectors, too. There are many different ways to contribute. Teachers don't have a monopoly on that.


Quote:
Please take time to find out what it really means to teach in the public schools before you make lame, uneducated comments like the above quoted statement....
What did the poster say that was 'uneducated' - are you saying teachers do NOT get their summer off, or more holiday time than most working stiffs? I know some that got to bank 25 years of sick time, and a full COLA'd pension - I don't know anyone in the private sector that got that.

I'm not saying every teacher, everywhere gets those level of benefits, but you don't have to look far to find areas that do provide them.

Be specific - just what was wrong with what mathjak said?

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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-03-2006, 08:40 PM   #50
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by youbet
But doesn't that give the teachers more money that unscrupulous FA's can remove from their greedy clutches? The attractive pay they receive in your school district seems more like fattening them for financial slaughter by the hoards of bottom feeding FA's than overpaying them.
Teachers don't invest with FA's........they are in love with Horace Mann and TIAA-CREF............

Guess that's why the local school adminstration keeps trying to get me to run for school board.........because of my parents, they see me as "union-friendly"............
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-03-2006, 11:33 PM   #51
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Teachers don't invest with FA's........
That's not true. You should check your facts. DW and I know several retired teachers whose qualified and non-qualified investments have, unfortunately, been turned over to FA's. When teachers retire, greedy FA's arrive on the scene like vultures on road kill.

You should take the opportunity to participate in the management of your local school district by being a member of the school board. Instead of whining and crying about situations which you only observe, you could take responsibility for determining the outcome of budgeting, negotiations and so forth.
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 12:03 AM   #52
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by youbet
You should take the opportunity to participate in the management of your local school district by being a member of the school board. Instead of whining and crying about situations which you only observe, you could take responsibility for determining the outcome of budgeting, negotiations and so forth.
Yes, we should participate and getting more involved and informed about what's school board is doing so that we can hold them accountable for results under a well-defined budget. Does the school district pay members for their participation?
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 12:09 AM   #53
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Yes, we should participate and getting more involved and informed about what's school board is doing so that we can hold them accountable for results under a well-defined budget. Does the school district pay members for their participation?
To the best of my knowledge, school board members do not receive compensation.

More than holding others accountable as school board members, folks who want to have a real say in public education budgets and administration should run for school board membership themselves. Whining/crying/bitching is lame. Participation is way cool.
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 03:27 AM   #54
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by Oldbabe

Why oh why do you people expend your energy bashing public school teachers? This totally baffles me, as they are among the few working people in our society whose motivation is to make life better for all of us, kids and adults, through promoting education for all, which is the only way our democracy can thrive.
I can only conclude that you must have had some childhood school trauma. Maybe your English teacher treated you unfairly, as one did to me, or your Art teacher was a pervert or your math teacher made a mistake one time and you concluded he was incompetent.

Please take time to find out what it really means to teach in the public schools before you make lame, uneducated comments like the above quoted statement. You really have no idea what teaching is like these days. And how much they work, just like a regular job.

no one is bashing teachers, my wifes a teacher and my daughter is on her way to being one . im just tired of hearing teachers who work for the new york board of ed complain about their pay. they work 6-8 months and make a fair amount of money for that amount of time the benefits are superb and their retirement pkg is phenomanal. my buddy just retired with 78,000 a year to start and cola'd every year and paid medical for life. he made almost 100,000 while working and was off enough to actually run a phone installation business on the side.


as far as teachers being motivated to make life better and thats why they became teachers. heres a little known secret , i cant speak for areas other than new york but they may be the same.

VERY FEW GO INTO COLLEGE WITH THE THOUGHT OF BEING A TEACHER.

the whole college system is designed to crank out teachers and social workers if you dont have a clear cut picture of what you want to be.

classes that lead to teaching are always more plentiful, a little easier and always lead to a path where as an example if you take xxxxx 101 and take xxxx 102 then it leads you into a funnel and you cant easly switch gears to become anything else. its the default of the system.

most didnt want to be teachers or social workers, the system by default made them become that. true they may be very good dedicated teachers but the point is that most were forced into a career choice they may not have really wanted or are cut out for mentally
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 08:20 AM   #55
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by mathjak107

im just tired of hearing teachers who work for the new york board of ed complain about their pay.
I'm glad you've confined your comments to the New York folks. Some posters are showing off their ignorance by making statements that fail to pinpoint who they're talking about. I'm surprised you folks tolerate the way the school board and superintendent are administering the public education system there in NY. It must truly be a pathetic place to live.
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they work 6-8 months
Another good example of the incompetence of NY government. In the Chicago area they get about six weeks off in the summer, two at Christmas and one at spring break. A nice deal, but far from the six month figure you mention.
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my buddy just retired with 78,000 a year to start and cola'd every year and paid medical for life. he made almost 100,000 while working and was off enough to actually run a phone installation business on the side.
I wonder why the anecdotal examples of teachers working outside of major metropolitan areas making much less are never given?
Quote:
the whole college system is designed to crank out teachers and social workers if you dont have a clear cut picture of what you want to be.
Hmmmmm..... quite an exaggeration......or you just don't have a clue as to what you're talking about. Because teachers do a semester of student teaching and must be certified, their course load includes not only getting a teachable major, such as math, science, foreign language, etc., but also doing student teaching and getting certified.


Mathjak, I'm weary of listening to labor union propaganda too. But I'm also tired of listening to whiners who spend their days giving anecdotal examples of overpaid teachers but fail to get involved with doing anything about it.

Public education in this country needs a lot of improvement. Even if we could magically locate the highest paid 10% of all public teachers and cut their pay, I don't think that would fix the system. The way we fund public education needs a major overhaul (along with the rest of government) so that it provides good facilities and staff in all geographic areas. When an area like NY can pay teachers approximately double the average of the rest of the country, somethings wrong.

BTW, congrats on your DW being a teacher there! Must be nice having that extra six figure income for working six months and sweet retirement and retiree health benefits forthcoming! Sweet mathjak, sweet. It must be nice benefitting from that gravy train!!



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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 09:05 AM   #56
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Re: More on teacher pay

I don't know where you guys live with teachers making these amounts, but my dad has been a teacher here in Va. for 28 years and when he hits 30 years he will retire. (The stress is starting to have an effect on his health) he will bring home approx. 2500/month before taxes in retirement. The Virginia State Retirement system, the only one offered by the school dosn't pay any of your post retirement health insurance either. He will have to have another job after retirmement just to make ends meet. Teachers here are on a 10 month contract and they fight over summer school duties just to get some extra pay. I would say that approx. 80-90% of the teachers in this area have a Summer or part time job. My dad has been teaching in the same school for 28 years and he makes around 55k a year. and the job is no cake walk either. He can't wait to retire in 2 years so he can get a job doing something that dosn't want to make him pull his hair out. Now don't get me wrong he loved his job for a long time but with all these new starderdized tests and disrespectful kids, and the fact that he has to teach the test and he can't teach the subject, he will retire the day he is eligable regardless of retirement income.
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 09:19 AM   #57
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Re: More on teacher pay

NYC area aside, I think that teachers are among the most unappreciated, underpaid professions around. Their responsibilies are huge, and the challenges of dealing with nonsupportive families, student violence and other distractions make it a tough profession these days. I get paid many times what they do, but their work is arguably more important than mine.

Enjoy your pensions, summers and holidays, and thanks for taking on roles that many parents just seem to have dropped. My kids both went to public schools and while some were better than others, I appreciated every teacher they ever had.

Like the military, teachers pensions are at least one way of saying thanks for an otherwise under-reimbursed and critical role in society. If NYC is over the edge regarding reimbursement, so be it. I doubt that is typical of the situation nationally.
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 09:27 AM   #58
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Like the military, teachers pensions are at least one way of saying thanks for an otherwise under-reimbursed and critical role in society.
But, you need to take the whole package into consideration. People will and do accept lower wages (if necessary) if there are other forms of compensation (tangible and intangible) - and vice versa.

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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 09:33 AM   #59
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Re: More on teacher pay

This whole discussion is just microcosm of why govenment should not try to deliver products or services.

Yes teachers are great - there is no doubt about it, but they should not be paid more than their market labor rate.

Why is it that government employees have the best medical care, the best pensions, the most secure jobs? And why in many cases should their pay be above what they could get elsewhere ?

Why is it that everything that the govenment delivers - be it schools or highways or correctional institutions costs way more than it should. Why should ordinary people that work and pay taxes put up with this nonsense ?
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 09:47 AM   #60
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Why is it that everything that the govenment delivers - be it schools or highways or correctional institutions costs way more than it should. Why should ordinary people that work and pay taxes put up with this nonsense ?
Because people are inclined to spend their time and energy whining instead of getting involved in fixing the problem. Opportunities to influence how your school district operates are readily available. But Americans like to piss and moan, roll their eyes back in their heads and flop down in front of the tv instead of rolling up their sleeves and doing something about it.
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