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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 09:58 AM   #61
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by devo
In California, in my classroom, I've got 27 students, 5 first languages and at least a dozen cultures represented. Many of their parents are illiterate, and send their kids to school to avoid the law. They minimize the importance of education to their kids and could care less if their child does anything at school at all. Do their NCLB scores represent my teaching abilities or my worth? The kids are only tested on 4th grade standards. Most of them aren't even close to ready for fourth grade material. Legally, I'm out of compliance everyday. NCLB says I have to teach 4th grade material. But for many of my students, they'll never see it in my room. What's the sense in teaching a kid to reduce a fraction, when they don't know simple facts? So I work with them, where they are...move them forward. Then, at the end of the year the state comes in and tests them on a bunch of stuff they've never seen. They bomb. Then I'm hung out to dry by you, the media, the district...you name it. I'm a failure by every metric (that the media can print). I'm not looking for your sympathy, just asking you...retired folks to walk into your local school, volunteer in any classroom, and document the ineptitude. Good luck!
Please tell me I misunderstood what you typed, especially the bolded portion. Are you saying you intentionally pass students, who are not capable of completing the subject matter at their grade level? If so it would seem you are part of the problem, NOT the solution. If you are passing students who you know don't have the knowledge to do the required work you should be hung out to dry and fired. That would mean you are not doing your job, but you are still receiving your pay as if you were.
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 10:01 AM   #62
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by MasterBlaster
This whole discussion is just microcosm of why govenment should not try to deliver products or services.

absolutely. Without a doubt, the public would be far better served to have all roads, infrastructure, defense, education, and regualtory functions subbed out to for-profit corporations.

Those corporations will protect our interests FAR more effectively than any government. After all--they're making a profit! Maybe Arthur Anderson accounting could run social security? Yah! That would fix the system! How about Halliburton in charge of DOD. Oh, that's right, they already are.

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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 10:18 AM   #63
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by MasterBlaster

Yes teachers are great - there is no doubt about it, but they should not be paid more than their market labor rate.
Nor should they be paid less than the market labor rate.

This cuts both ways and is part of the problem with teacher compensation that needs to be corrected. It's most fun to whine about "overpaid" teachers. But the typical compensation systems school boards use also causes some offered salaries to be below market.

For example, if the starting salary for a new highschool teacher in a rural area is $28K, they are going to have trouble attracting math, science and language teachers with top notch credentials. The market beginning salary for those folks is higher and highly qualified applicants head for affluent suburban and urban school districts. Yet, the school board plods on, lowering standards, offering below market salaries and doing without top notch staffing in these fields.

It's most fun to piss and moan about examples of "overpaid" public education employees (teachers and administration). It's less fun to try to deal with the shortcomings our public education system has and how to fund and structure an improved system.

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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 10:18 AM   #64
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by bosco
absolutely. Without a doubt, the public would be far better served to have all roads, infrastructure, defense, education, and regualtory functions subbed out to for-profit corporations.

Those corporations will protect our interests FAR more effectively than any government. After all--they're making a profit! Maybe Arthur Anderson accounting could run social security? Yah! That would fix the system! How about Halliburton in charge of DOD. Oh, that's right, they already are.

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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 10:52 AM   #65
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by youbet
It's most fun to whine ....

It's less fun to try to deal with the shortcomings our public education system has and how to fund and structure an improved system.
True, there are problems in the whole system. But, just getting onto a school board, while a positive step, is not going to give you the power to change things dramatically.

We have a situation where the government has a 'near monopoly' in providing education. Since that monopoly can be abused, I can see why teachers would feel the need for some union protection. I think we have ended up with two powerful forces on each end, and little that an individual can do to impact it.

I'm not saying we should just roll over and play dead either - but I am trying to be realistic about what can be accomplished by an individual.

-ERD50 (maybe THIS should be a different thread? - How should we fund education?)
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 11:00 AM   #66
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Re: More on teacher pay

I get tired of hearing what a good deal we have. Try doing it for almost 30 years in an american inner city.

Bottom line the real issue has to do with poor uneducated people who do not put a premium on education . their children are behind from the start and quite frankly many of these people should NEVER HAVE HAD these children.

The schools are a mirror image of the community .

Just look at the SAT scores across the country.

The best are from the most affluent communities, the lowest from the poorest.

Sure blame the teacher, easier than to look in the mirror and blame yourself.
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 11:15 AM   #67
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by ERD50

I'm not saying we should just roll over and play dead either - but I am trying to be realistic about what can be accomplished by an individual.
Not much, but a good start.
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 11:23 AM   #68
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by youbet
That's not true. You should check your facts. DW and I know several retired teachers whose qualified and non-qualified investments have, unfortunately, been turned over to FA's. When teachers retire, greedy FA's arrive on the scene like vultures on road kill.

You should take the opportunity to participate in the management of your local school district by being a member of the school board. Instead of whining and crying about situations which you only observe, you could take responsibility for determining the outcome of budgeting, negotiations and so forth.
And you should check your facts before you chastise others when you don't know anything about me, and let your own imagination run wild.......... : As you say, these folks "unfortunately" have been turned over to advisors..........so what's your point? Now you're upset because I DON'T have teachers as clients

Just because I don't teach, doesn't mean I don't understand the dynamics of the education system...........but of course you get defensive that those outside of teaching MIGHT KNOW something about what takes place in that arena............. :P
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 11:29 AM   #69
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by FinanceDude
And you should check your facts before you chastise others when you don't know anything about me, and let your own imagination run wild.......... : As you say, these folks "unfortunately" have been turned over to advisors..........so what's your point? Now you're upset because I DON'T have teachers as clients

Just because I don't teach, doesn't mean I don't understand the dynamics of the education system...........but of course you get defensive that those outside of teaching MIGHT KNOW something about what takes place in that arena............. :P
You are an FA??

I never used them. I figured if I need more money I should get a job or another one or maybe a third. Find the best interest rates and read the WSJ and other Financial publications with a large grain of salt.

FA are in the business to well make money for their clients and then for themselves in commissions, a dumb population is your best customer, there are plenty!
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 11:32 AM   #70
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Now you're upset because I DON'T have teachers as clients
No, not at all.

Quote:
Just because I don't teach, doesn't mean I don't understand the dynamics of the education system...........but of course you get defensive that those outside of teaching MIGHT KNOW something about what takes place in that arena............. :P
No defensiveness here. You mentioned you were being solicited to run for school board. I said I thought you should do that.
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 11:44 AM   #71
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by youbet
No defensiveness here. You mentioned you were being solicited to run for school board. I said I thought you should do that.
Really? This sounds pretty condescending to me:

Quote:
You should take the opportunity to participate in the management of your local school district by being a member of the school board. Instead of whining and crying about situations which you only observe, you could take responsibility for determining the outcome of budgeting, negotiations and so forth.
If you're trying to be funny...........I don't get the joke............ BTW, When I was president of the Chamber of Commerce, I started the Education and Careers Committee, and worked with the school district to have over 60 different companies come and share their opportunities with the kids. I also worked on a fundraising effort to buy instruments for the grade school and I belong to and serve on the PTA............I guess that means I'm a "whiny parent" : : :
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 11:52 AM   #72
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Re: More on teacher pay

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If you're trying to be funny...........I don't get the joke............ BTW, When I was president of the Chamber of Commerce, I started the Education and Careers Committee, and worked with the school district to have over 60 different companies come and share their opportunities with the kids. I also worked on a fundraising effort to buy instruments for the grade school and I belong to and serve on the PTA............I guess that means I'm a "whiny parent" : : :
It was one of your posts here that sounded "whiny." I have no idea about your personality as a parent. If you weren't whining and I misinterpreted your post regarding teacher's pay and benefits in your district, my apologies.

But really, looking at the added information about your activities with the Chamber of Commerce, you would make an ideal school board member. You're obviously motivated. You're interested. You're educated in financial matters. Go for it!
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 12:04 PM   #73
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Re: More on teacher pay

My first job out of college was a high school teacher in rural Kentucky circa 1970. While I had some very rewarding experiences, I decided there were much better ways for me to earn a living. After 1 year (make that 9 months), I left the teaching profession with a great respect for those who could tolerate the job. I can only imagine how much worse it is now, 35 years later. Anyone who gets a fat pension for enduring a teaching career for all those years is well deserving. Unfortunately, I would guess only a small percentage of teachers ever get rewarded monitarily, proportional to their efforts.
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 12:47 PM   #74
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by mathjak107

as far as teachers being motivated to make life better and thats why they became teachers. heres a little known secret , i cant speak for areas other than new york but they may be the same.

VERY FEW GO INTO COLLEGE WITH THE THOUGHT OF BEING A TEACHER.
Mathjak, would you please stop mentioing these inconvenient ideas?

Ha
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 12:49 PM   #75
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Re: More on teacher pay

My mom quit teaching at 60, not because she wanted to, but she got sick of a number of things, namely paying to serve the kids breakfast so they could learn because the kid's parents were too lazy to make sure the kid got something to eat before school..........I think her last year, she spent $1500 on breakfast...............
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 01:34 PM   #76
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by youbet
To the best of my knowledge, school board members do not receive compensation.

More than holding others accountable as school board members, folks who want to have a real say in public education budgets and administration should run for school board membership themselves. Whining/crying/bitching is lame. Participation is way cool.
I general, they do not. However, having attended numerous board meetings, I can tell you that I'm not sure if I would look forward to 5-6 hour meetings every 3 weeks, along with committee assignments..............

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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 04:30 PM   #77
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by mathjak107




VERY FEW GO INTO COLLEGE WITH THE THOUGHT OF BEING A TEACHER.

the whole college system is designed to crank out teachers and social workers if you dont have a clear cut picture of what you want to be.

classes that lead to teaching are always more plentiful, a little easier and always lead to a path where as an example if you take xxxxx 101 and take xxxx 102 then it leads you into a funnel and you cant easly switch gears to become anything else. its the default of the system.

most didnt want to be teachers or social workers, the system by default made them become that. true they may be very good dedicated teachers but the point is that most were forced into a career choice they may not have really wanted or are cut out for mentally
I have to vigorously disagree. I would have thought otherwise until going through the college tour process for 12th grade daughter that has wanted to teach elementary school since 6th grade. I recently read her essay on "why I want to teach"....made me very proud. Most of the schools we visited won't even accept new applicants into school of Ed. You must "prove yourself" for 2-3 semesters before "applying for acceptance" into the elementary education curriculem. Many schools are adament about thier Master's program and discourage a BA only option. I met some state Education Dept administrators who explained that "no child left behind" is mandating many of these changes....and I am NOT saying the changes are for the better (time will tell), but the idea of becoming a teacher by default is being banished. Now from a practical standpoint, I believe we will continue to see shortages being filled with folks that have "temporary certifications" until the hammer comes down and the "temps" are weeded out...and the cycle repeats itself.
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 04:42 PM   #78
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Re: More on teacher pay

let's retire...
I'm not the problem...thanks for suggesting it though...it confirms the fact that every board has goons.

Fortunately though, you bring up a terrific point and one that troubles teachers every year, especially here in California. In my district (possibly the state, not sure though) we cannot retain a student for more than one year in their career. Current research indicates that retention does more to diminish success than it does to help. Social reasons are the primary concern. Think what you may, the numbers say that retained students rarely benefit. By your logic, we'd have a slough of 18 yo 7th graders across the state. Of course most of them would be minorities, and impoverished. By your system, they'd also be social outcasts, and statistically speaking would drop out long before they got to 18. Retention is a tool used for students who are socially, often physically immature AND are struggling academically.

What’s left for these kids?? Years of remediation…sometimes. I have every struggling student in some form of intervention. In school programs, after school programs, homework clubs, home tutors if they can afford to. They spend their recesses and lunchtime with me. So I work with them, where they are...move them forward. And then, yes, they move on to the next grade. Their data moves with them. If they’re lucky, next years teacher will take the time to teach them where they are…move them forward. They, like me, will be out of compliance, but the students will continue to progress.

How does it end Some will drop out. Some will try, several times, to pass the CASHEE, our state exit exam. Some won’t pass. By current legislation, they won’t get a diploma. Success?? Yup, if you ask me, if they made it to 18 and went all the way through school, with effort…absolutely. Every step of the way, they were supported by highly educated people, whose interest was to help them do better…people who could make way more money, and not have their heart ripped out every day.

Go tell your kid’s teacher that they’re the problem…see how that goes over…like it or not…I’m your kid’s teacher! Logically speaking, I just don’t see how one can argue that teachers should be paid less AND, at the same time, teachers are failing kids. You may believe both those to be true, but I think you’re mixing your message. It seems to me, if you really wanted maximum output from schools, you’d be competing with big business to recruit the best available minds for teaching. You’d leave all those hard science grads, no reasonable choice but to teach. The benefits would be so great. I think we would be much better off if I couldn’t compete for a teaching position. If I was under qualified, then schools might be where they should and could be. But the message you and the public are sending teachers, administrators, and school districts all over the country is “You suck, and you’re failing, and oh yeah, you’re overpaid too!” Very helpful…and a wonderful message to send to those that you “entrust” your prized offspring to. You want performance that you’re not willing to pay for. You paid for the Honda, and now you’re crying because the 911 is blowing your doors off.

I think part of the problem we all are having with our schools is that we are conflicted. I have an editorial cartoon, where it shows 1972 and there is a teacher on one side of the desk and a student on the other. Behind the teacher are the parent, principal and police officer. Then it goes to 2004 and shows the same picture but now the parent, principal and police officer are standing behind the student. The fact is we all think that American schools were so successful in decades past, but schools were supported.

My mother let me have it when I was “caught” as a kid vandalizing a library book in the library. Problem was they had the wrong kid. I would have never done that, it wasn’t my style at all. Mom would have never believed me over an administrator even though I was a good student and a good kid. They figured it out and mom apologized to me later. But it illustrates that the school and the family had a common goal. This incident just wouldn’t play out like that today…not in my school with my students. I’ve got parents calling my principal if I give “too much” homework. The class clown’s mother accuses each teacher, every year of “picking” on her kid. Where is my motivation to do that?? Her kid may be going to jail someday, and she won’t be there to save him then. Big favor she’s done that kid!!

We all see news about India, Germany, China and Japan doing so well academically and how we struggle. Take a look at the school calendar that they run and the school day. Take a look at the social pressure placed on those kids. Americans as a group are not committed to that level of education for every student. Good, bad, whatever you want to say, we’re not committed to it. But it sure is easy to hammer teachers for it. What with their unions and plush retirements…they’re screwing the American public!! District policy here is 10 minutes of homework per grade level. “Sorry folks with 40 minutes/night at fourth grade, we won’t be making it to calculus by next year like our friends from India!!”

The fact is we Americans have had it good for a few generations now. We all make more and have more than anywhere else in the world. Do you all think that’s due to our hard work, and god granted giftedness. I think not! We’re taking advantage of world labor and bullying our way around world markets, and “Joe Six-pack” is lazy, indignant and believes the world owes him everything. Of course there are teachers with this entitlement attitude…but I’d also suggest that schools are more a reflection of the community than the other way around. I’m asked on a daily basis to “give my kid a break” on this assignment, or that behavior issue. “Don’t be too hard on Johnny, his Dad left us last year.” I don’t mean to sound cold, and I give Johnny everything I’ve got, but if he’s not making good choices, academically or otherwise, I’ll grill him. Life after school will never be as kind to him as I was. We’re just not supported the way that schools used to be. Unfortunately, I think the media makes more of the one sicko in the classroom than anything well done. But, what’s news about that.

So, until we all decide that education is as important to us as it is to many third world nations, we won’t compete. Our system is the one we’ve chosen. Show me a government program with that many employees that doesn’t have serious issues. Teachers’ salaries are the least of OUR worries for education. I’m only guessing that this issue has five or six pages worth of legs because there are enough teachers (or relatives of), even in this close knit group, that are really passionate about how their day is spent.

Sorry all that air…let me know when I shouldn’t bother!
devo
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 05:53 PM   #79
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by jazz4cash
I have to vigorously disagree. I would have thought otherwise until going through the college tour process for 12th grade daughter that has wanted to teach elementary school since 6th grade. I recently read her essay on "why I want to teach"....made me very proud. Most of the schools we visited won't even accept new applicants into school of Ed. You must "prove yourself" for 2-3 semesters before "applying for acceptance" into the elementary education curriculem. Many schools are adament about thier Master's program and discourage a BA only option. I met some state Education Dept administrators who explained that "no child left behind" is mandating many of these changes....and I am NOT saying the changes are for the better (time will tell), but the idea of becoming a teacher by default is being banished. Now from a practical standpoint, I believe we will continue to see shortages being filled with folks that have "temporary certifications" until the hammer comes down and the "temps" are weeded out...and the cycle repeats itself.
AGAIN MY COMMENTS PERTAIN TO NEW YORK
you can disagree but the fact is the default career that you get led to in a new york college or university is teaching. the courses that are more plentiful and slightly easier lead down a path thats like a funnel. by the time you know it if you had no other career path in mind the courses you have taken lead no where else without big time re-tracing and eventually you reach a point where you cant even get back up the funnel to head in another direction.


its the systems way of cranking out teachers. why? because on a pay scale with a masters, teaching and social working are at the low end. although you are compensated with tremendous time off, superb benefits and a retirement plan thats better than most anything you can get in private industry but most people my daughter included didnt intitialy go into the school to be a teacher and probley wouldnt have been if it wasnt for the teacher trap built in to the system. . .at this point my daughter graduates this month and its off to graduate school for her masters in education. most of my friends ended up being teachers just by the mere fact they got caught in the funnel.


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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 08:41 PM   #80
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by devo
let's retire...
I'm not the problem...thanks for suggesting it though...it confirms the fact that every board has goons.

Fortunately though, you bring up a terrific point and one that troubles teachers every year, especially here in California. In my district (possibly the state, not sure though) we cannot retain a student for more than one year in their career. Current research indicates that retention does more to diminish success than it does to help. Social reasons are the primary concern. Think what you may, the numbers say that retained students rarely benefit. By your logic, we'd have a slough of 18 yo 7th graders across the state. Of course most of them would be minorities, and impoverished. By your system, they'd also be social outcasts, and statistically speaking would drop out long before they got to 18. Retention is a tool used for students who are socially, often physically immature AND are struggling academically.

What’s left for these kids?? Years of remediation…sometimes. I have every struggling student in some form of intervention. In school programs, after school programs, homework clubs, home tutors if they can afford to. They spend their recesses and lunchtime with me. So I work with them, where they are...move them forward. And then, yes, they move on to the next grade. Their data moves with them. If they’re lucky, next years teacher will take the time to teach them where they are…move them forward. They, like me, will be out of compliance, but the students will continue to progress.

How does it end Some will drop out. Some will try, several times, to pass the CASHEE, our state exit exam. Some won’t pass. By current legislation, they won’t get a diploma. Success?? Yup, if you ask me, if they made it to 18 and went all the way through school, with effort…absolutely. Every step of the way, they were supported by highly educated people, whose interest was to help them do better…people who could make way more money, and not have their heart ripped out every day.

Go tell your kid’s teacher that they’re the problem…see how that goes over…like it or not…I’m your kid’s teacher! Logically speaking, I just don’t see how one can argue that teachers should be paid less AND, at the same time, teachers are failing kids. You may believe both those to be true, but I think you’re mixing your message. It seems to me, if you really wanted maximum output from schools, you’d be competing with big business to recruit the best available minds for teaching. You’d leave all those hard science grads, no reasonable choice but to teach. The benefits would be so great. I think we would be much better off if I couldn’t compete for a teaching position. If I was under qualified, then schools might be where they should and could be. But the message you and the public are sending teachers, administrators, and school districts all over the country is “You suck, and you’re failing, and oh yeah, you’re overpaid too!” Very helpful…and a wonderful message to send to those that you “entrust” your prized offspring to. You want performance that you’re not willing to pay for. You paid for the Honda, and now you’re crying because the 911 is blowing your doors off.

I think part of the problem we all are having with our schools is that we are conflicted. I have an editorial cartoon, where it shows 1972 and there is a teacher on one side of the desk and a student on the other. Behind the teacher are the parent, principal and police officer. Then it goes to 2004 and shows the same picture but now the parent, principal and police officer are standing behind the student. The fact is we all think that American schools were so successful in decades past, but schools were supported.

My mother let me have it when I was “caught” as a kid vandalizing a library book in the library. Problem was they had the wrong kid. I would have never done that, it wasn’t my style at all. Mom would have never believed me over an administrator even though I was a good student and a good kid. They figured it out and mom apologized to me later. But it illustrates that the school and the family had a common goal. This incident just wouldn’t play out like that today…not in my school with my students. I’ve got parents calling my principal if I give “too much” homework. The class clown’s mother accuses each teacher, every year of “picking” on her kid. Where is my motivation to do that?? Her kid may be going to jail someday, and she won’t be there to save him then. Big favor she’s done that kid!!

We all see news about India, Germany, China and Japan doing so well academically and how we struggle. Take a look at the school calendar that they run and the school day. Take a look at the social pressure placed on those kids. Americans as a group are not committed to that level of education for every student. Good, bad, whatever you want to say, we’re not committed to it. But it sure is easy to hammer teachers for it. What with their unions and plush retirements…they’re screwing the American public!! District policy here is 10 minutes of homework per grade level. “Sorry folks with 40 minutes/night at fourth grade, we won’t be making it to calculus by next year like our friends from India!!”

The fact is we Americans have had it good for a few generations now. We all make more and have more than anywhere else in the world. Do you all think that’s due to our hard work, and god granted giftedness. I think not! We’re taking advantage of world labor and bullying our way around world markets, and “Joe Six-pack” is lazy, indignant and believes the world owes him everything. Of course there are teachers with this entitlement attitude…but I’d also suggest that schools are more a reflection of the community than the other way around. I’m asked on a daily basis to “give my kid a break” on this assignment, or that behavior issue. “Don’t be too hard on Johnny, his Dad left us last year.” I don’t mean to sound cold, and I give Johnny everything I’ve got, but if he’s not making good choices, academically or otherwise, I’ll grill him. Life after school will never be as kind to him as I was. We’re just not supported the way that schools used to be. Unfortunately, I think the media makes more of the one sicko in the classroom than anything well done. But, what’s news about that.

So, until we all decide that education is as important to us as it is to many third world nations, we won’t compete. Our system is the one we’ve chosen. Show me a government program with that many employees that doesn’t have serious issues. Teachers’ salaries are the least of OUR worries for education. I’m only guessing that this issue has five or six pages worth of legs because there are enough teachers (or relatives of), even in this close knit group, that are really passionate about how their day is spent.

Sorry all that air…let me know when I shouldn’t bother!
devo
This is, without a doubt, the BEST post I have read on this board.......bar none.......
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