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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 09:18 PM   #81
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Re: More on teacher pay

Devo,

You have identified one of the most important point of education. That is, instead of pointing the fingers at the teacher, we should point out that cultural values play an important role. Since Asians (along with others) place great emphasis in education, parents have the proclivity to push their kids to achieve academically. As a result, Asian kids tend to perform well at school regardless of geographic locations. My point is that instead of shifting blame to the school system, we need examine our beliefs and values. That is, do we (as parents) encourage or inspire our kids to learn and to succeed academically?

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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 10:02 PM   #82
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Re: More on teacher pay

Quote:
Originally Posted by FinanceDude

Quote:
Quote from: devo on Today at 04:42:58 PM
let's retire...(and a whole lot more)
This is, without a doubt, the BEST post I have read on this board.......bar none.......
Well, it is a great post about how families need to be involved in their kid's education, and of course, many teachers are hard-working, dedicated professionals, but... what was the question

let's retire only asked for a clarification of the wording of the post - did devo pass these kids on to the next grade (apparently, the state requires him to do this)?

IIRC, the thread is not about whether teachers work hard or not, whether our education system is broken or not (those are full subjects by themselves), but it started because there seems to be a few people that think some teachers are over-paid, and a few that think some teachers are under-paid.

I'll stand by my earlier comment. Regardless of everything else, if the job cannot be filled with qualified people, something needs to change for the better; pay, working conditions, benefits, whatever.

And if an open position attracts many, many qualified applicants - then I think the district is under a financial obligation to the taxpayers to review the compensation package. No need to offer that much (whatever it may be) if people are chomping at the bit to work there.

I think devo might agree - he mentioned earlier that some districts have trouble filling positions, while people jump at chances in other districts. When that happens in the private sector, you better believe there will be adjustments to the compensation packages forthcoming.

Supply and demand - I learned that in school.

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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 10:10 PM   #83
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Re: More on teacher pay

Quote:

And if an open position attracts many, many qualified applicants - then I think the district is under a financial obligation to the taxpayers to review the compensation package. No need to offer that much (whatever it may be) if people are chomping at the bit to work there.

-ERD50
I pass this area on my way to work sometimes...here's a home that was built 90 years ago. No sale history, so the people living here may not have spent a fortune on it if they've been owners for a long time. Nice estate, and a lot of land, but dang...take a look at the property taxes on this thing:

http://www.zillow.com/HomeDetails.ht...zprop=31114187

Yes, that's $112k property taxes. Nice school district though
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 11:31 PM   #84
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by kjpliny
I pass this area on my way to work sometimes...here's a home that was built 90 years ago. No sale history, so the people living here may not have spent a fortune on it if they've been owners for a long time. Nice estate, and a lot of land, but dang...take a look at the property taxes on this thing:

http://www.zillow.com/HomeDetails.ht...zprop=31114187

Yes, that's $112k property taxes. Nice school district though
I thought that was excessive in taxes until I looked at the property details. 21 rooms, 6.5 baths, and nearly 9,000 square feet sitting on 37+ acres, valued at 6.2 Million? If you could relocate that house to my neighborhood (hell, if it would fit in my neighborhood) you would be paying $145,000 in re taxes. Even if they are the original owners from 1916 I don't think they are hurting to pay the taxes on the mansion.

Given those kind of property valuations (median home in this city is valued at 1 Million), I would expect very kid in the school to have a laptop, eat caviar at lunch, and the faucets in the boys' bathrooms would be white gold.
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-04-2006, 11:59 PM   #85
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by ERD50
I'll stand by my earlier comment. Regardless of everything else, if the job cannot be filled with qualified people, something needs to change for the better; pay, working conditions, benefits, whatever.
There are plenty of qualified people who would give it a go. They don't get the jobs. The jobs- including in many areas the jobs teaching things that are hard to fake like math-- often go to people with education degrees, and nothing even close to a BA in math. And when the math teacher goes to get his masters, to up his pay grade, what is it usually in?

Yep, “education”. It isn't the fault of the individual teachers. They are at the same time victims and beneficiaries of the system.

All the schools of education in the country could be shut down tomorrow, with no loss to the educational attainment of our youth. In fact, likely the gains would start to show immediately.

How many PhDs in education do you think they turn out in China?

Sorry Devo, great speech, but again slaying straw men.

What needs to be done is not throw yet more money at this dysfunctional system, but instead to shut it down and start over. This is what was concluded by a massive study done at Harvard about 10 years ago.

If money or high teachers salaries produced educational attainment in the students, the US would have the best students in the world.

I guess you have noticed that we don't?

Ha
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-05-2006, 12:06 AM   #86
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by HaHa
If money or high teachers salaries produced educational attainment in the students, the US would have the best students in the world.
How about paying the students? The best students get the highest pay.

Anyway, here is an article from MSN that talks about whether teachers are overpaid.
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/Depart...teacherpaymain
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-05-2006, 07:31 AM   #87
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Re: More on teacher pay

Devo--I'd have to agree with most of what you posted, a big exception being the part about me being a goon. ERD50 is correct I was asking for clarification and pointing out that if I correctly interpreted your post, you were complaining about yourself. If passing the students on before they are ready for their current grade level is a state requirement then I'm glad I don't have my child in school in that state. I'd rather have a person who can perform at the 7th grade level with poor self esteem, than a person who can perform at the 5th grade level with outstanding self esteem. I would have to disagree with your assessment that having a kid go all the way through high school, even though they can't perform up to standard is a success. I don't have any data to back me up, but my belief is that most of these students will drop out whether they are retained or passed. Once they become teens most will figure out that they won't graduate and discover that they don't fit in with mainstream society and will drop out and repeat the cycle. At least if these children are not passed they will have an opportunity to learn more information and quit backlogging the system for those who are attempting to learn. I guess I'm preaching to the choir, from what you said it is basically out of your hands anyway.


The only school administrator I have pointed my finger at was a guidance counselor. She was trying to have us put my son on medication, even after his doctor said it was not needed. Some of his teachers could handle him and put him in his place. It was interesting those teachers were the ones who had the most success with him. The ones who kept writing notes home about this poor behavior or that poor behavior did not have much success, even with us pushing him. They were also the teachers who, when we talked with other parents, seemed to have problems with most of the students in the class.
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-05-2006, 08:38 AM   #88
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Re: More on teacher pay

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaHa

Quote from: ERD50 on December 04, 2006, 10:02:46 PM
I'll stand by my earlier comment. Regardless of everything else, if the job cannot be filled with qualified people, something needs to change for the better; pay, working conditions, benefits, whatever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaHa
There are plenty of qualified people who would give it a go. They don't get the jobs.
I was referring to devo's statement that some districts can't fill positions, others have a surplus of applicants. I'm pretty sure he was saying the poor school districts have the problems. But, I think (don't have the info to back it up), that that is more of an issue with the working conditions in those districts (student/parent behavior & motivation, safety issues) than pay - maybe both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaHa
How many PhDs in education do you think they turn out in China?
Interesting - a while back my wife was commenting on some complex, feel-good, fru-fru, expensive programs with vague goals that some educators were pushing for in our district. She just didn't get it, why do these things when some basics were being ignored?

I explained to her, when you have a bunch of people with PhDs in education, they cannot make an impression by addressing basics, they need to do something 'wonderful', 'creative', 'innovative' 'stimulating' and show-off what they learned in obtaining their PhD. Basics are boring. I saw the same thing in industry, PhDs would need to use an innovative approach to all things - sometimes that was great, but often a basic 'get-er-done', pragmatic approach would work better, cheaper, and be more effective, and actually get implemented in time to do have some real payback.

The education problems are mostly basic - no PhDs required to fix the majority of them.

-ERD50

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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-05-2006, 09:10 AM   #89
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Re: More on teacher pay

Quote:
All the schools of education in the country could be shut down tomorrow, with no loss to the educational attainment of our youth. In fact, likely the gains would start to show immediately
Now that's a bit hasty don't you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lets-retire
Devo--I'd have to agree with most of what you posted, a big exception being the part about me being a goon.
Like my classroom, everyone here is "unique and special" too. I'd agree on the surface passing someone who isn't making it doesn't seem right. The numbers are there to show that a kid will shut down and quit when they're retained, and they don't have a chance. You're right that we're over sensitive to "feelings" but in this case it's the right call.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lets-retire
The only school administrator I have pointed my finger at was a guidance counselor. She was trying to have us put my son on medication, even after his doctor said it was not needed. Some of his teachers could handle him and put him in his place.
Sorry, I addressed you directly at the beginning of the post and was speaking about the public in general by this point. I'm not a big fan of meds either, although, I have seen some tremendous results. As with anything medical, it's a very individual thing. Either way, no teacher should be even mentioning meds to a parent. I may suggest that a parent seek medical help, but I'm not qualified to diagnose any learning disorder. I can document cognitive and behavioral struggles, but I'm no doctor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaHa
Sorry Devo, great speech, but again slaying straw men.
Guilty as charged...he always was my favorite though...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaHa
What needs to be done is not throw yet more money at this dysfunctional system, but instead to shut it down and start over. This is what was concluded by a massive study done at Harvard about 10 years ago.
I could not agree more. The system in flawed at it's core. I don't have any great answers. I sure would like to have a consequence to offer students and families that don't seem to care about their "free" public education though. I don't think we disagree on much here. I just don't think you'll find many employess with any self respect that would say they aren't worth their paycheck! Just have to disagree on this whole teacher pay thing.

Happy Holidays!
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-05-2006, 09:34 AM   #90
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by FinanceDude
I general, they do not. However, having attended numerous board meetings, I can tell you that I'm not sure if I would look forward to 5-6 hour meetings every 3 weeks, along with committee assignments..............
And I wouldn't want to attend 5-6 hour meetings every three weeks along with committee assignments either....... It's much more fun to just whine, cry and bitch about teacher pay on internet forums!!
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-05-2006, 09:56 AM   #91
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by newguy888
Just look at the SAT scores across the country.

The best are from the most affluent communities, the lowest from the poorest.
Yes, indeed!!
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-05-2006, 10:11 AM   #92
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Re: More on teacher pay

Hi Devo! Just wanted to say that I am with you - and I'm going to think it is just misplaced jealousy regarding all of our supposed perks that is egging some posters here on to bash those of us on the front lines In any event, I did want to let you know I appreciate your thoughts and comments and your ability to keep your cool! Thanks for speaking for the rest of us.
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-05-2006, 10:15 AM   #93
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by Leonidas
I thought that was excessive in taxes until I looked at the property details.
Yeah........ It's a tax rate of about 1.8% of market value...... just about what I pay here. No sympathy from me.
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-05-2006, 10:20 AM   #94
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Re: More on teacher pay

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolidA
Hi Devo! Just wanted to say that I am with you - and I'm going to think it is just misplaced jealousy regarding all of our supposed perks that is egging some posters here on to bash those of us on the front lines In any event, I did want to let you know I appreciate your thoughts and comments and your ability to keep your cool! Thanks for speaking for the rest of us.
there is a strong bias on this board for self-made retirements and against pensions. Teachers are considered poster-childern for DB pensions. Therefore they receive a lot of venting. Plus, sort of like traffic engineering, everybody is an expert on teaching. Everybody drives and everybody went to school.

Many "theorists" on this board will go so far as to advocate for a world that essentially requires EVERYONE to attain FI in exactly the same way that they did--totally through self-directed investments. They'll do it in the guise of "free markets" or libertarianism, but in the final analysis it often means little more than that they think everyone should be like them. They will bash anything that is not free-market, provided by the government, or that entails an continuing obligation on the part of a corporation or government. If you are not like them, you must be overpaid.

It's pure and simple sour grapes and rancor. Don't take it personally.
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-05-2006, 10:32 AM   #95
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Originally Posted by youbet
And I wouldn't want to attend 5-6 hour meetings every three weeks along with committee assignments either....... It's much more fun to just whine, cry and bitch about teacher pay on internet forums!!
It does take less time.........


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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-05-2006, 11:27 AM   #96
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Re: More on teacher pay

Quote:
Originally Posted by bosco
It's pure and simple sour grapes and rancor.
Bosco, I can't agree with you 100% on this........ but there is some truth to it!

A elementary or highschool teaching career in our Illinois public schools pays off financially when you:

1. get hired by a high paying school district
2. get your masters degree plus 45 - 60 additional credit hours
3. stay in that same school district your entire career

If you fail to do any of these things, you don't get ice cream with your pie.
If you complete the obstacle course, you'll end your career at a relatively high pay level and receive a nice pension.

For those that successfully negotiate this path ( mainly the high paid teachers we're blasting on this thread) salary in the second half of their careers and pensions make up for the low starting salaries. I guess it's no surprise that others would look on this with a "sour grapes" outlook when they chose to walk another path. When you eat your dessert first, it's easy to be jealous when others are enjoying theirs at the end of dinner.

Note that the anecdotal examples of six figure salaries and pensions given as examples in this thread are approximately double the national average.

On the subject of teachers receiving "market value" pay, I tend to agree. Compensation packages should reflect the value it takes to attract and retain qualified people to the jobs. But it should cut both ways. Rules that keep the best teachers from jumping from district to district following the money should also be eliminated. If, for example, the best math teacher at your highschool (you know, the one who teaches the honors classes, leads the math club and got little Susie through calculus I) gets an offer from the neighboring school district of a few grand more, he/she should be free to take it. In other words, eliminate rule #3 above.





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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-05-2006, 11:35 AM   #97
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Re: More on teacher pay

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolidA
Hi Devo! Just wanted to say that I am with you - and I'm going to think it is just misplaced jealousy regarding all of our supposed perks that is egging some posters here on to bash those of us on the front lines In any event, I did want to let you know I appreciate your thoughts and comments and your ability to keep your cool! Thanks for speaking for the rest of us.
I have not seen much 'bashing' of teachers here - have you, really? Some 'bashing' of the system, yes - from both sides. I think I've seen more accusations of bashing than I have actual bashing.

I think that some people just feel it is a bit misguided to mention a teacher salary number w/o also recognizing that there are often benefits that go far beyond what those in the private sector typically get. I don't think anyone 'bashed' anybody else for getting those perks, but just that they should recognize that they exist - salary does not tell the whole story.

Whether that all adds up to 'fair' or 'unfair' is not for me to decide. I would not want some teachers to decide if the compensation I received was 'fair' or not - that is what free markets are for.

-ERD50

PS - I see 'youbet' just posted before me - very. very good points, IMO.
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-05-2006, 11:40 AM   #98
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Re: More on teacher pay

I may be biased, but I think teaching is a thankless job. Those who do it have inifnitely more patience than me, and are definitely wired differently than I. Of course, the fact that society expects them to be the disciplinarians of the kids they teach makes it even harder........ :P And if the teacher does give out discipline, we have police/attorney.civil rights group clamoring to fire the teacher...........

Th examples of NYC and some others is pretty humorous. After all, can't you make $50,000 a year working at MCDONALD'S in Manhattan?? $100,000 a year in the NYC is peanuts for pay..........think COST OF LIVING.......... In addition, those who teach in roough schools deserve some combat or hazard pay.........

I think what gets under taxpayer's skin is the fact that they have seen almost 100% increases in health care costs to them over the past 10 years, and see a lot of teachers paying $0 or $25 a month for full coverage, along with merit increases. Then they get their tax bill, and the school district is the huge part of the bill..........kind of like a double whammy to them........

In our school district, we have lost a number of GOOD teachers to other shcool districts that pay more.........kind of a free agent market. The union uses this as a club to beat the school board and taxpayers over the head for more money, but it has not worked very well so far.

The biggest problem is that we passed a $23 million dollar referendum to do a bunch of stuff 7 years ago.........problem was, AFTER it passed, the administration and school board CHANGED what they spent it on, and now the taxpayers are pissed............I don't think that was too smart............

Most teachers would get paid more in the private sector, all things being equal, but WOULD NOT get the DB pension, cheap health insurance, and paid and unpaid time off.........so you have to weigh the pros and cons..........

But then again, what do I know.........I grew up in a Democratic household but ended up a fiscal conservative.........

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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-05-2006, 12:20 PM   #99
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Re: More on teacher pay

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In our school district, we have lost a number of GOOD teachers to other shcool districts that pay more.........kind of a free agent market. The union uses this as a club to beat the school board and taxpayers over the head for more money, but it has not worked very well so far.
Imagine how it would be if free market conditions were fully established! You are less than an hour away from the affluent northern suburbs of Chicago (Glencoe, Wilmette, Lake Forest, etc.) where teacher salaries are high, working conditions superb, and benefits to die for. I bet one of them would like to pick off your number one ranked math teacher and could easily afford to do so! But you're in Wisconsin and your teachers have Wisconsin certification and would need to go through the hassle of getting Illinois certification to go work there. If we had national certification you would get to compete with those school districts for your very best.

BTW, in Illinois, it used to be that the most years of experience a school district could credit a new hire with was ten. So, if you had more that ten years with your school district, you become locked in due to competing school districts being unable to offer you the same years of credit you have with your current district. This may have changed.....it's been a number of years since I was involved..... To have free market conditions, this needs to be changed. Higher paying districts need to be free to shop for the best from lower paying districts when they have needs to fill.

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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-05-2006, 12:21 PM   #100
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Re: More on teacher pay

Yes indeed , spend almost 30 years teaching in an american inner city school district, then tell me I do not deserve my pension.

Most have lost their pensions because of a practice of the 401K which was originally made for a perk to the CEO of big corp back in the early 70s when many had pensions. Then they the CEOs saw the light make americans fend for themselves. Sure our union has watched out for the teacher since not many others have.

I will say this again 30 years with a masters degree and at 79K its really not much. My pension of 33K is well not super.
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