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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-09-2006, 06:43 AM   #141
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Re: More on teacher pay

after last years tax bill i think i bought my own tomohwak missle
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-09-2006, 01:02 PM   #142
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Re: More on teacher pay

Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107
after last years tax bill i think i bought my own tomohwak missle
Kewl - when are you going to launch it? I want to come watch.
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-09-2006, 02:12 PM   #143
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Re: More on teacher pay

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Kewl - when are you going to launch it? I want to come watch.
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-09-2006, 10:09 PM   #144
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Re: More on teacher pay

According to the tax distribution for year 2000 ( http://www.house.gov/jct/x-45-00.pdf), the highest 1% (in income) pay 33.6% of the tax revenue.

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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-09-2006, 10:25 PM   #145
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Re: More on teacher pay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanky
According to the tax distribution for year 2000 ( http://www.house.gov/jct/x-45-00.pdf), the highest 1% (in income) pay 33.6% of the tax revenue.

Like that's fair! Tax 'em some more! Those dirty bastards aren't paying enough!
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-09-2006, 11:09 PM   #146
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Re: More on teacher pay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanky
According to the tax distribution for year 2000 ( http://www.house.gov/jct/x-45-00.pdf), the highest 1% (in income) pay 33.6% of the tax revenue.

I am trying to digest footnote #2..........
The highest 1% starts at AGI w/ additions of 297k
The highest 5% starts at AGI w/ additions of 134k
The highest 10% starts at AGI w/ additions of 101k
the additions are employers share of FICA and the like.
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-09-2006, 11:38 PM   #147
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Re: More on teacher pay

Quote:
Originally Posted by bosco
Considering the . . . huge disparity between the haves and have nots (and let's face it,most of us on this board are the haves) . . .
This becomes easier to understand if you substitute "earned and earned-nots" for "haves and have nots." Some wealthy folks (and I guess you would include many on this board) received their wealth from their parents, but the vast majority did not. And, even if the money did come from somewhere else--that is a case of a person with the money (Mommy or daddy) deciding what to do with their property. That is one of the characteristics of "property" that makes it valuable-you can do things with it as you choose. Freedom--many people really like it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ladelfina
Funny how when the rich get taxed, it's "income redistribution", but when a CEO makes 500x his workers' salary rather than 50x or 100x... it's not! That always cracks me up.
Someone who controlled the money (e.g. the Board of Directors, etc) voluntarily decided how much to pay the CEO. Workers, CEO, etc all enter into voluntary contracts with businesses or other employers to sell their services for a price, for the mutual benefit of both. How this can be likened in any way to taxation, where the person whose property is being seized has no right to refuse, is a mystery to me. They are entirely different in character.
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-10-2006, 03:26 AM   #148
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Re: More on teacher pay

just saw an article in this months kiplingers , 5% of the wealthiest people pay 50% of the income tax
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-10-2006, 04:13 AM   #149
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Re: More on teacher pay

Quote:
Originally Posted by mathjak107
just saw an article in this months kiplingers , 5% of the wealthiest people pay 50% of the income tax
but what percentage of the money do they have? Once again, the most important data is ommited from this statistic. Maybe those 5% receive 90% of the income.
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-10-2006, 04:16 AM   #150
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Re: More on teacher pay

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
This becomes easier to understand if you substitute "earned and earned-nots" for "haves and have nots." .
I'd say it's pretty naive to believe that because you "have it" that you "earned it."
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-10-2006, 06:54 AM   #151
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Re: More on teacher pay

Quote:
Originally Posted by bosco
I'd say it's pretty naive to believe that because you "have it" that you "earned it."
We'd probably difffer a lot in how we define "earned." My guess is that the IRS definition of "earned income" is what you'd consider a fair definition. To me:
- If someone gets an hourly wage from another entity, he earned it
- If someone gets a dividend from a company to recompense them for the risk they tok in becoming part owner of the company, they have earned that money.
- If someone receives money from another in exchange for something, whether it s a lamp at a gargae sale or corporate stock that they bought in hopes it would appreciate, they have earned that money.
- Now, I will not claim that junior "earned" the money that they get from Daddy or Mum. But, he did get it voluntarily. More importantly, Daddy and Mum, or someone else in the past, earned it through one of the methods above. Presumably they paid tax on it at that time. And, they can do as they please with it.

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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-10-2006, 08:47 AM   #152
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Re: More on teacher pay

We routinely focus on income (earned or unearned), but wealth (i.e. net worth) is a more accurate indication of have vs. have not. The compression of wealth is so significant that income hardly matters. As I quoted before $150k income puts you in the top 5-10% income wise, but for many high cost locales, that figure won't support more than a middle class life-style for a growing family.
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-10-2006, 12:55 PM   #153
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Re: More on teacher pay

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem

- Now, I will not claim that junior "earned" the money that they get from Daddy or Mum. But, he did get it voluntarily. More importantly, Daddy and Mum, or someone else in the past, earned it through one of the methods above. Presumably they paid tax on it at that time. And, they can do as they please with it.

yes, I would say this is a source of disagreement between us.

this is probably why Republicans are so eager to eliminate the estate tax.

"voluntarily?" A bank robber got his loot "voluntarily." How often to people get money "involuntarily"?
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-10-2006, 04:49 PM   #154
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Re: More on teacher pay

Quote:
Originally Posted by bosco
How often to people get money "involuntarily"?
Every nickel of tax the government gets is taken involuntarily.

From Merriam Webster online:
"Voluntary"
Pronunciation: 'vä-l&n-"ter-E
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French voluntarie, from Latin voluntarius, from voluntas will, from velle to will, wish -- more at WILL
1 : proceeding from the will or from one's own choice or consent.

Anyone saying taxes are "voluntary" is just being obtuse. Sure, folks have a choice--pay or lose their freedom.
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-10-2006, 08:17 PM   #155
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Re: More on teacher pay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldbabe

...they are among the few working people in our society whose motivation is to make life better for all of us...
Adam Smith: "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we can expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest."
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-10-2006, 08:42 PM   #156
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Re: More on teacher pay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Average Joe
Quote from: Oldbabe on December 03, 2006, 06:56:34 PM

...they are among the few working people in our society whose motivation is to make life better for all of us...
Quote:
Originally Posted by AverageJoe
Adam Smith: "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we can expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest."
AverageJoe - that is a great quote from Adam Smith. I've been waiting for 'oldbabe' to respond to my post as to why she insulted the majority of the population that are not teachers, but I guess she does not want to answer to that.

There sure seems to be a lot more emotion than facts surrounding this topic.

-ERD50

PS - is there some trick to getting embedded quotes - I always have to try editing it and it always comes out badly ? Other forums I post to handle this automatically.

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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-11-2006, 12:13 AM   #157
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Re: More on teacher pay

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
Every nickel of tax the government gets is taken involuntarily.

From Merriam Webster online:
"Voluntary"
Pronunciation: 'vä-l&n-"ter-E
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French voluntarie, from Latin voluntarius, from voluntas will, from velle to will, wish -- more at WILL
1 : proceeding from the will or from one's own choice or consent.

Anyone saying taxes are "voluntary" is just being obtuse. Sure, folks have a choice--pay or lose their freedom.
with this post you have morphed the discussion into something not even remotely resembling the original area, at least as I understood it. It's certainly possible that I misunderstood what you meant.

you made the statement that "haves and have nots" could be accurately understood by substituting "earned" and "earned-not"

I think this is baloney in some cases. There are plenty of haves that did not earn. And earning is not always good, or of benefit to society. Drug dealers, mafioso, Tom Delay to name a few examples. I fail to see how many of the heirs and heiresses have earned what they have, nor do I see why they should not pay taxes on what they have inherited. Your point "at least it was voluntary" seems to mean little other than to basically say "it's taxes so it's bad." Not particularly profound, IMO.

I never said that taxes were voluntary. My point was of course junior is going to volunteer to take mom and dad's money rather than let the government have it. Anybody that gets money generally does so voluntarily--Skilling, Delay, and Abramoff included. So what. That doesn't mean it's desirable to society. I don't pay more taxes than I legally have to either. That doesn't mean I think taxes are bad.

I think I probably know what 'voluntary' means without you citing the dictionary definition of it. Perhaps, if we were misunderstaning the point of each other's posts, the source of the confusion might have been more profitably sought elsewhere?

It's clear we won't agree, nor do we have to. I just get a little tired of misleading statistics being cited to try to justify large tax windfalls for the well-to-do. At least your position seems to be honest--taxes are bad and to be reduced and avoided if possible. No need for bogus statistics. I believe that I understand your point of view. I just disagree with it. To me, the table should be slanted a bit more toward the welfare of the many. To you, apparantly, it is more important to protect the interests and assets of the individual and his family even if it means stepping over bodies in the street. Or maybe you wouldn't take it this far. Either way, I would call what we have a valid difference of opinion. I too get frustrated over what seems to be many people's inability to take personal responsibility. I just see other solutions to the problem. These people have children, and those children don't need to be punished because their parents are f**kwits. Also, jails are not cheap, and must be funded with taxes. When you create a huge class of poor, guess what you get....lots of crime.
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-11-2006, 05:37 AM   #158
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Re: More on teacher pay

Okay, I'll let it go. We did get off track. I think I poorly expressed my point about the exchange of funds between parents and their children. The point is this: When the money was earned (by Daddy, Mommy, ther parents, etc) it was, presumably, taxed. Once Mommy and Daddy have the money, they are free to do with it as they want. If they give it charity, the charity pays no tax. They can give it all to the government if they choose. I believe they should be free to give this already-taxed money to their kids without the kids having to pay tax on it.

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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-11-2006, 07:16 AM   #159
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Re: More on teacher pay

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
Okay, I'll let it go. We did get off track. I think I poorly expressed my point about the exchange of funds between parents and their children. The point is this: When the money was earned (by Daddy, Mommy, ther parents, etc) it was, presumably, taxed. Once Mommy and Daddy have the money, they are free to do with it as they want. If they give it charity, the charity pays no tax. They can give it all to the government if they choose. I believe they should be free to give this already-taxed money to their kids without the kids having to pay tax on it.

I haven't thought about the gift tax before but my gut says Samclem is right on this one. It is a lot different than the estate tax. Money I give to my kids has already been taxed. Heck people can give money to churches and charities and get a tax deduction - the recipients pay nothing. Give to your kids and they pay income tax? What is that about? I can see why you would be expected to pay capital gains on equities or property that you give to kids, but why money that has been taxed?
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Re: More on teacher pay
Old 12-11-2006, 08:34 AM   #160
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Re: More on teacher pay

donheff, gift tax and estate tax are essentially the same. One is paid on money gifted while the 'gifter' is alive, the other is paid by the 'gifter's estate on money gifted at death.

For 2006, $12K per year per recipient can be gifted w/o tax. Beyond that, the gifter pays tax, or taps into the exclusion (which takes away from the exclusion for the estate tax).

The reciever of the gift pays NO income tax on it - at any level. See link below for more 'fun facts' - ERD50

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/...=98968,00.html
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