More on teacher pay

[kjpliny]

After thinking about the $80k mentioned in the first post, it occurred to me that a couple that I know who are both teachers on Long Island will be getting 64.5% of their final average salary after working for 33 years and retiring at age 55. They both make just shy of 100k and only have 18 years in so far...this means that by the time they retire, their pensions will be about 75-80k each, plus withdrawals from two 403(b) accounts, plus SS at 62. They will easily be living off $200k+/year.

Sick.

Well...off to pay my 9k in property taxes ($6.3k of which is school taxes). lol

[Spanky]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kjpliny After thinking about the $80k mentioned in the first post, it occurred to me that a couple that I know who are both teachers on Long Island will be getting 64.5% of their final average salary after working for 33 years and retiring at age 55. They both make just shy of 100k and only have 18 years in so far...this means that by the time they retire, their pensions will be about 75-80k each, plus withdrawals from two 403(b) accounts, plus SS at 62. They will easily be living off $200k+/year. Sick. Well...off to pay my 9k in property taxes ($6.3k of which is school taxes). lol

That's nice. Who says teachers are underpaid?

[donheff]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kjpliny After thinking about the $80k mentioned in the first post, it occurred to me that a couple that I know who are both teachers on Long Island will be getting 64.5% of their final average salary after working for 33 years and retiring at age 55. They both make just shy of 100k and only have 18 years in so far...this means that by the time they retire, their pensions will be about 75-80k each, plus withdrawals from two 403(b) accounts, plus SS at 62. They will easily be living off $200k+/year. Sick. Well...off to pay my 9k in property taxes ($6.3k of which is school taxes). lol

That sounds higher than I have ever heard of. Are you sure their system is covered by SS? Usually, when local government systems move over to SS they knock the defined benefit pensions way down - more like the Federal system where that component would be 33%, not 64%.

[dmpi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kjpliny After thinking about the $80k mentioned in the first post, it occurred to me that a couple that I know who are both teachers on Long Island will be getting 64.5% of their final average salary after working for 33 years and retiring at age 55. They both make just shy of 100k and only have 18 years in so far...this means that by the time they retire, their pensions will be about 75-80k each, plus withdrawals from two 403(b) accounts, plus SS at 62. They will easily be living off $200k+/year. Sick. Well...off to pay my 9k in property taxes ($6.3k of which is school taxes). lol

Not too bad for working 9 months out of the year. I guess they got the last laugh... all the way to the bank.

[devo]

Quote:

Not too bad for working 9 months out of the year.

How could you let such an opportunity pass you by?!? Come on in...the water's fine. We always need intelligent, hardworking people like you in the classroom. You know most of us are lazy and looking for a hand out anyway. You'd be a standout for certain. (Toungue firmly planted in cheek)

Quote:

Who says teachers are underpaid?

I know we've been over this before, but worth is not a matter of opinion, but the market. No worker is overpaid as long as s/he's employed...doctor, NBA player, teacher, carpenter, cube slave...same, same.

Quote:

I guess they got the last laugh...

Ok maybe a little giggle!!
devo


sorry, I know we shouldn't dive into this "teacher abyss" again. Bullies!!

[haha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by devo I know we've been over this before, but worth is not a matter of opinion, but the market. No worker is overpaid as long as s/he's employed...doctor, NBA player, teacher, carpenter, cube slave...same, same.

This is crap, at least when applied to US public school teachers, who are members of one of the few remaining powerful unions in the US. Thus, their wages are not free market derived. A better estimate of market value of a teacher is what they are paid in private and parochial schools, where the threat of strikes and taxing powers of are not meaningful. Private school teachers in the US, unless we are talking about Andover or St. Paul's, make half or less of what a public school teacher in the same community makes, esp. after the phony masters degrees and a bit of seniority have kicked in for the public school troops. And this totally ignores the vastly better retirement, health care, etc. of the public school "teachers".

Actually, IMO the true worth of a public school teacher is less than or equal to private school teachers in the area. The private school teacher usually or always is able to teach their students something. If not, the parents will send their kids elsewhere, so the school gets rid of ineffective teachers. (Markedly different from public school!)

When a public school manages to get good results with its students we see it on TV news.

Ha

[farmerEd]

>>Who says teachers are underpaid?

The teachers.

[kjpliny]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donheff That sounds higher than I have ever heard of. Are you sure their system is covered by SS? Usually, when local government systems move over to SS they knock the defined benefit pensions way down - more like the Federal system where that component would be 33%, not 64%.

SS payments are taken out of their paychecks, so yes they do get social security. Also, their pensions are state tax free if they remain in NY through retirement.

[devo]

Ha,

Why would anyone teach at a private school for half the money and half the benefits? Why are there teacher shortages in nearly every major city district? Why are there thousands of qualified teachers trying to get hired for that handful of jobs in other successful districts?

People teach at private school because they get to cut out the beaurocratic crap that happens in the public system. They get to throw disruptive kids out of the room. They work with families that support and value education. They work with children that care what their grades are.

In California, in my classroom, I've got 27 students, 5 first languages and at least a dozen cultures represented. Many of their parents are illiterate, and send their kids to school to avoid the law. They minimize the importance of education to their kids and could care less if their child does anything at school at all. Do their NCLB scores represent my teaching abilities or my worth? The kids are only tested on 4th grade standards. Most of them aren't even close to ready for fourth grade material. Legally, I'm out of compliance everyday. NCLB says I have to teach 4th grade material. But for many of my students, they'll never see it in my room. What's the sense in teaching a kid to reduce a fraction, when they don't know simple facts? So I work with them, where they are...move them forward. Then, at the end of the year the state comes in and tests them on a bunch of stuff they've never seen. They bomb. Then I'm hung out to dry by you, the media, the district...you name it. I'm a failure by every metric (that the media can print). I'm not looking for your sympathy, just asking you...retired folks to walk into your local school, volunteer in any classroom, and document the ineptitude. Good luck!

The fact is academic success in schools is far more closely correlated to family income than any other factor. Show me the research connecting academic failure to overpaid teachers...I'd love to see it. Today's American teachers are the most educated population of educators in history. More training than ever before. How does that translate into such poor perception of public education? Of course...you're right. The system is a mess. Public schools are a mess. Crazy beaurocracy and spending. Systems that are inefficient and old. But don't pin that on the teachers. I think most teachers would argue that all that crap is a road block to them as well.

But how do we fix that?? If all schools went to a privatized system, I'd be teaching there too. Like I've said before...I'd do it for less, but why if I don't have to. Trust me, I teach because I'd rather spend my day working with kids than do anything else. Show me a teacher who said, "Yeah, I'm going to be a teacher for the INCREDIBLE FINANCIAL BENEFITS!!"

Do I think more would be accomplished in a school that was run like a business? A school where only motivated students were allowed? A school where parents were forced to participate in their children’s' lives? Absolutely. Do I think we'd have a better world if only those who could afford it could go? Not so much. But again, please come into my classroom, before you tell me that I'm overpaid and failing. Ask the parents of my students. Go ahead...tie my test scores to my paycheck! I'll be gone next year to the richest, most homogenous school I can find. You'll drive every great teacher that wants to work with the "tough" kids right out of dodge.

The unions are too strong, and do protect some bad teachers. They also protect the great teachers from a ridiculously litigious society. That's the price we pay. The system is not right. There is much to be desired, I just happen to think that teachers are far from the root.

I guess I just have to ask...The way you all like to present it...where did you go so wrong as to NOT become a teacher? Why on earth would you and OldMc (my kids love your tune by the way) miss out on these tremendous benefits? What, with our phony masters degrees, we're the making out like bandits. I'd think you'd be lined up at every inner city district with your new credential trying to get your hands on all of these great rewards.

Missing out on teaching has to be the greatest financial blunder of your time!!

Love the board, this place makes teaching $$ fun!

devo

[haha]

Gotta hand it to you Devo, great comeback!

In effect your compensation is 1/3 teaching, 2/3 combat pay.

Ha

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by devo paraphrasing here: ummm, said a lot

devo, you are clearly very dedicated and I'm sure you are a great teacher. And, like many (most? all?) of us, you are frustrated by a bureaucracy that stands in the way of getting the job done. It is all the more frustrating when you see kid's futures impacted by it. It is a tough job to try to do well. In that regard, you have my empathy and admiration.

However, I'll stand by my earlier statement - pay or 'worth' can only really be determined in a free market. And between a teacher's union and a government 'monopoly' in education, I think it is far from a free market.

Quote:

Why are there teacher shortages in nearly every major city district? Why are there thousands of qualified teachers trying to get hired for that handful of jobs in other successful districts?

If a district cannot hire enough competent teachers, they need to change something - working conditions, pay, benefits, recognition, security, future advancement; whatever solves the problem. And the government owes it to the people to fix the problems.

But, if a district has far more than enough competent teachers apply for a job, they owe it to the taxpayers to review their compensation policy and lower it. Simple free market stuff. And I sure wouldn't 'blame' a teacher for going after the most attractive job offer.

Quote:

walk into your local school, volunteer in any classroom, and document the ineptitude. Good luck!

Well, I'm sorry to say, I have had bad luck here. My kid's 5th grade advanced math teacher was not aware that a number divided by itself was equal to 'one'. And we are in a good school district. This same teacher was proud to tell us that they had over 400 people apply for a recent position. And this incompetent teacher was making over $75,000, along with other benefits higher than most people in the private sector get.

Quote:

Crazy bureaucracy and spending. Systems that are inefficient and old. But don't pin that on the teachers. I think most teachers would argue that all that crap is a road block to them as well.

Well, I won't pin it on the teachers, like most employees, they are cogs in a wheel. But, I sure would like to see teachers work with their unions to fight for better education. All I've seen is pay and benefits as talking points in union negotiations. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd welcome it, but I have not seen it.

Quote:

where did you go so wrong as to NOT become a teacher?

That is a straw man. There are many reasons I did not become a teacher, or any number of other tough professions. But that does not mean that those professions should not be paid according to a free market. And in a free market, no one really has a right to complain about their compensation, or anyone else's - it is what it is. Don't like it - find another job. Like your job - then accept the going rate. That's all that was being said.

-ERD50

[kjpliny]

The problem as I see it is how education is funded and how the taxpayer doesn't have a say in how a teacher is compensated. When school budgets come up for vote, none of the actionable adjustments to the budget affect teacher salary, pensions, health benefits, etc. If the budget fails, the only thing you can adjust is capital projects, administrative staffing levels, non-core programs, etc. The teachers union has so much clout in this country that no state or local legislator is in the position to cut pension/pay levels...the contracts get signed, and the taxpayers pay the bill.

If the school budget included teacher and administrative salary and compensation review, where the voter actually gets a list of the proposed salary step chart and estimated retirement benefits for retiring teachers, the budget would fail every time. People on fixed incomes can't afford $8-10k per year property taxes and are leaving my state in droves. I've paid about $50k in school taxes over the past 10 years and I don't even have any kids, meanwhile, I know of a family with 13 children (actually two related families renting two floors of a house) who are paying no property taxes and getting the benefits of the local schools.

If you ask me, we give endless tax incentives to people with lots of kids...the more kids you have, the more you get. Oh, had another kid...here's another tax credit...keep popping em out! Frankly, it's retarded. It should be the other way around...the more kids you have, the more you should contribute to help fund their existence. Can't afford it...don't breed so damn much.

[kjpliny]

Above messege comes across a little strong with regards to kids...it's not that I don't like them, I just don't respect people who have a lot of them when they can't afford them.

[youbet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kjpliny SS payments are taken out of their paychecks, so yes they do get social security.

That would be a possible but highly unusual arrangement. Normally Medicare taxes are deducted from public K - 12 teacher paychecks but not SS.

[Martha]

I split this discussion off from the live above your means thread.

[kjpliny]

Quote:

Originally Posted by youbet That would be a possible but highly unusual arrangement. Normally Medicare taxes are deducted from public K - 12 teacher paychecks but not SS.

Here's a link to NYSTRS regarding pension + SS...

http://www.nystrs.org/main/library/d...ns/socsec.html

[youbet]

Well, that's good news! I believe EVERYONE working should contribute to SS, including public sector employees. Here in our state, K - 12 public sector teachers contribute to Medicare but not SS and I believe that is the most common situation. Perhaps NY will be leading the way towards all working citizens contributing to SS.

[cons]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kjpliny After thinking about the $80k mentioned in the first post, it occurred to me that a couple that I know who are both teachers on Long Island will be getting 64.5% of their final average salary after working for 33 years and retiring at age 55. They both make just shy of 100k and only have 18 years in so far...this means that by the time they retire, their pensions will be about 75-80k each, plus withdrawals from two 403(b) accounts, plus SS at 62. They will easily be living off $200k+/year. Sick. Well...off to pay my 9k in property taxes ($6.3k of which is school taxes). lol

i know how you feel kjpliny. i live on long island as well. my house is on a 1/4 acre property and my taxes are $8k. i'm in sachem school district. what district are you in?

a couple of colleagues at work have spouses that are teachers. one has been a teacher for sayville school district for close to 10 years, and makes ~$70k. the other guy has a spouse that works for valley stream school district. she just started and is in her 2nd or 3rd year, making in the low 50s.

[ronin]

Just for comparison, my first year teaching I earned a whopping $6700. I didn't crack $25k for almost 15 yrs more. Over the last 10 years, our salaries have been frozen (no raises) for probably 5 yrs. Last yr's raise was 2.73% and that was after 2 yrs of zip/bumpkus. If it was such a great deal, they'd be beating down the doors to get in and I assure you that is not the case.

[mathjak107]

i can only imagine what my salary would be if i worked only 7months or so out of the year like they do here in new york