Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 08-11-2010, 06:16 PM   #61
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by harley View Post
True as far as it goes, but on an individual basis this is a lot of money and it can cause the executives to make incredibly unsafe bets in order to get the short term jump in corporate value that drives those salaries and bonuses.
This is huge. Also often misunderstood is the amount of actual cash generated that goes out the back door as stock grants and options. Sometime look at the algebraic total of stock buybacks and flotations as compared to the year over year change in share count. Stock buybacks get sold to the stock buying public as returning money to the shareholders, but in tech companies in particular this is rearely true. Buybacks are mostly used to sterilize or partially sterilize options excercised and stock grants. Another (deliberate) obfuscation is the way that options are valued in the expense accounts. They should be valued by the Black -Scholes formaula at the time of granting, although there may be acompany somewhere that does this I don't know which one it is.

Most of what is written about this is poorly informed speculation.

Microsoft is a relatively clean company with its executive and employee compensation practices and accounting.

Ha
__________________

__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 08-11-2010, 06:17 PM   #62
Moderator
ziggy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by harley View Post
Yes it is. In the frst place a baseball player is (or should be) paid based on his relatively short term perfomance. It is measurable, and it is known that he's going to burn out and possibly be crippled or in pain for the rest of his life. Most, but not all, pro athletes earn what they are paid. Plus, they are entertaining. CEO pay is based on the same concept, but the measurements are easily manipulated. At least the cheating ball player is putting the steroids in their own bodies. The executives are shooting up the shareholders without their knowledge.
Some corporate executives clearly add so much value to their businesses and to the overall economy that they probably are worth what they are paid and maybe even more. Warren Buffett and Steve Jobs come to mind.

Unfortunately I think they are outliers.

Having said that, in terms of moving the overall corporate needle CEO pay is often fairly insignificant to a corporation that reports annual revenues in the tens of billions (if not more). But to the degree it creates unrest and agitation for change, it is a symbolic reminder of the erosion of the middle class and the slow but steady increase in the gap between haves and have-nots and may not be the best prescription for keeping the domestic peace. Many revolutions have been waged over too much wealth concentration in too few hands.
__________________

__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)

RIP to Reemy, my avatar dog (2003 - 9/16/2017)
ziggy29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 06:20 PM   #63
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post
Some corporate executives clearly add so much value to their businesses and to the overall economy that they probably are worth what they are paid and maybe even more. Warren Buffett and Steve Jobs come to mind.

Unfortunately I think they are outliers.

Having said that, in terms of moving the overall corporate needle CEO pay is often fairly insignificant to a corporation that reports annual revenues in the tens of billions (if not more).
Revenue is the wrong metric. Compare value that goes to the insiders vs. value that goes to the shareholders. Sometimes the execs get 1/10.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 06:30 PM   #64
Moderator
ziggy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
Revenue is the wrong metric. Compare value that goes to the insiders vs. value that goes to the shareholders. Sometimes the execs get 1/10.
Maybe, but I wasn't intending to produce an optimal metric, just a general observation about how the impact of executive pay on overall corporate operations is probably overrated in a lot of cases.
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)

RIP to Reemy, my avatar dog (2003 - 9/16/2017)
ziggy29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 06:48 PM   #65
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
clifp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,450
Quote:
Originally Posted by harley View Post


Yes it is. In the frst place a baseball player is (or should be) paid based on his relatively short term perfomance. It is measurable, and it is known that he's going to burn out and possibly be crippled or in pain for the rest of his life. Most, but not all, pro athletes earn what they are paid. Plus, they are entertaining. CEO pay is based on the same concept, but the measurements are easily manipulated. At least the cheating ball player is putting the steroids in their own bodies. The executives are shooting up the shareholders without their knowledge.

If a company wants to pay a corporate hotshot to run it, I have no problem with that. If they put in their 10, 20, or 30 years, then give them a hefty (but reasonable) pension. But I think any BoD worth their salt should insist on clawback clauses in the contract, and these multi-million dollar pensions after working for 14 months are absurd.

Oh well, just one more thing to put in the "if I ran the world" folder.
First I confess I don't follow baseball at all, so I maybe wrong here.
But in general when team signs a contract with a player they are looking at recent past performance and projecting it to the future. So when A Rod get his 275 million for a 10 year contract it is based on his early amazing career. He is hitting .260 this year and presumably put fans in seats. But I don't think even the Yankees would pay 33 million for a .260 hitter and I doubt there is a clawback provision if he finished his career as 250 hitter with 10 15 HR/season. i guess that A Rod gets bonus for certain achievements but the bulk of his salary is guaranteed regardless of his performance.

CEO also sign contracts based on past performance. At least the good boards try to tie the pay of CEOs based on performance, in particular the stock performance. Now you are right the downside of options and restricted stocks is it does encourage CEOs to take excessive risks. For both CEOs and sports stars there are severe penalties for their employer to cancel the contracts which is why we end up with golden parachutes and large pension but that is a function of contracts in this country.

I agree that there is a lot that is wrong with executive compensation and in particular corporate democracy is completely broken. That said the numbers don't lie and $5.7 billion is 1/2 of 1% of Fortune 500 revenues, neither cutting every CEO salary to $1 year or doubling them would make much a difference to our economy.
__________________
clifp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 06:48 PM   #66
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,389
CEOs like Warren Buffett and Steve Jobs are far and few in between. I dare say that most CEOs can be fired and the corporation would not miss them. Many may even prosper.
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 06:56 PM   #67
Moderator
ziggy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by NW-Bound View Post
CEOs like Warren Buffett and Steve Jobs are far and few in between. I dare say that most CEOs can be fired and the corporation would not miss them. Many may even prosper.
Agreed. Which is why I called them "outliers."
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)

RIP to Reemy, my avatar dog (2003 - 9/16/2017)
ziggy29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 07:07 PM   #68
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
clifp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,450
Quote:
Originally Posted by NW-Bound View Post
CEOs like Warren Buffett and Steve Jobs are far and few in between. I dare say that most CEOs can be fired and the corporation would not miss them. Many may even prosper.
I disagree of the score of CEOs I've meet ranging from entrepreneurs leading 10 people to the CEO of Adobe, Compaq, IBM, Intel, Lotus,Microsoft employing ten or even hundred thousands. I have found the vast majority of them are significantly smarter than I am and all work much harder. (Now I'll admit to being lazy but not stupid.)
__________________
clifp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 07:20 PM   #69
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
harley's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Following the nice weather
Posts: 6,418
Quote:
Originally Posted by clifp View Post
First I confess I don't follow baseball at all, so I maybe wrong here.
But in general when team signs a contract with a player they are looking at recent past performance and projecting it to the future. So when A Rod get his 275 million for a 10 year contract it is based on his early amazing career. He is hitting .260 this year and presumably put fans in seats. But I don't think even the Yankees would pay 33 million for a .260 hitter and I doubt there is a clawback provision if he finished his career as 250 hitter with 10 15 HR/season. i guess that A Rod gets bonus for certain achievements but the bulk of his salary is guaranteed regardless of his performance.

CEO also sign contracts based on past performance. At least the good boards try to tie the pay of CEOs based on performance, in particular the stock performance. Now you are right the downside of options and restricted stocks is it does encourage CEOs to take excessive risks. For both CEOs and sports stars there are severe penalties for their employer to cancel the contracts which is why we end up with golden parachutes and large pension but that is a function of contracts in this country.

I agree that there is a lot that is wrong with executive compensation and in particular corporate democracy is completely broken. That said the numbers don't lie and $5.7 billion is 1/2 of 1% of Fortune 500 revenues, neither cutting every CEO salary to $1 year or doubling them would make much a difference to our economy.
I don't follow baseball either. The only players whose names I know have been called before congressional hearings.

IMo, only the gov't, the MSM, and the TV watching public think lowering executive pay will improve the bottom line monetarily. Those with reasoning skills realize it's not the dollars going out of the companies, it's the dollars going into the executives pockets. Hey, it may be the same amount of dollars, but it's the reason for the change that is important. I disagree that cutting the CEo salaries wouldn't make a difference to the economy. I believe that if a way could be found to compensate executives fairly and without serious conflicts of interest it would make a HUGE difference in the economy, because they would be paying attention to the corporate bottom line and future, instead of so much their own.

That said, don't ask me how. I can tell when somethings broke, but not always how to fix it.
__________________
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." - Will Rogers, or maybe Sam Clemens
DW and I - FIREd at 50 (7/06), living off assets
harley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 07:20 PM   #70
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,389
I myself have not had the chances of meeting many CEOs, and only learn of their ability by observing their actions, and by reading reports by the media. There aren't many that I would call "stupid". In fact, I have no doubt that most of them are smarter and surely work a lot harder than this loafer (heh heh heh I spend a lot of time here, don't I).

But I simply doubt that most of them truly deserve the compensation of hundreds of million that they get, or that the success of their company is due to their leadership and not the economic wind direction or some fate.
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 07:44 PM   #71
Moderator
ziggy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by clifp View Post
I disagree of the score of CEOs I've meet ranging from entrepreneurs leading 10 people to the CEO of Adobe, Compaq, IBM, Intel, Lotus,Microsoft employing ten or even hundred thousands. I have found the vast majority of them are significantly smarter than I am and all work much harder. (Now I'll admit to being lazy but not stupid.)
I'm sure most are more savvy and "business smart" than most. But do they individually add THAT much more value than someone else who might be available just below the CEO level?

I'm going to use what I think is a pretty apt comparison. In baseball, stat geeks have a statistic called "WARP" which stands for "Wins Above Replacement Player." In other words, in a season of 162 games, how many more games does this team win because this player and not a typical "replacement" level caliber in AAA (the highest level of the minor leagues) or on a major league bench was in the lineup every day? Keep in mind that a good AAA player makes very little and a major leaguer makes about $450,000 at minimum and over $10 million a year on the high end; a AAA player probably doesn't get over $30-40K. And even a mediocre AAA player is a far better baseball player than we'll ever be.

A really good player might have a WARP score of 5; that is, the team wins 5 more games over the course of 162 *because* they have this star player instead of another "average" substitute. If you're giving a huge contract to someone with a WARP of 1 or 2, at best, you are probably overpaying for little outperformance.

That is the appropriate benchmark, IMO -- there are a lot of folks who are "smarter" and with more "business sense" than you or me. The real question is -- how much value does THIS CEO add compared to the typical aspiring executive in the "wannabe" pool?

Guys like Buffett and Jobs are off the charts. Buffett adds ridiculous value at a salary that even I exceed. (Obviously he owns so much Berkshire stock that his "pay" is measured in the appreciation of Berkshire stock and his salary doesn't move the needle.) Apple was alive and thriving until the late 1980s, started floundering and was almost dead in the mid 1990s only to stage a Lazarus-like comeback. The common theme in prospering? Jobs. When he was gone, Apple was dying. When he was there it thrived and thrives again today.

Buffett and Jobs have a corporate "WARP" off the charts and are worth an awful lot to the business. Many other corporate CEOs are barely better (if at all) than those who are "on the bench" and would do the job at a much lower level of pay.
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)

RIP to Reemy, my avatar dog (2003 - 9/16/2017)
ziggy29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 07:59 PM   #72
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
harley's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Following the nice weather
Posts: 6,418
That's an excellent analogy and explanation. Good job!
__________________
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." - Will Rogers, or maybe Sam Clemens
DW and I - FIREd at 50 (7/06), living off assets
harley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 08:09 PM   #73
Moderator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rocky Inlets
Posts: 24,411
Yes, it is a problem, and is so much bigger and broader than most people acknowledge.

Ha – exactly. It’s right there in the hidden depths of the 150 page 10k statements written by lawyers.

Ziggy – only Buffet stands alone, because he is the only one to have acquired all his wealth through his share ownership and not stock options or other transfers. Not even Jobs or Gates can say that.

From mid 80’s to today probably 10% - 20% of total market cap value of corporations has been transferred from shareholders to corporate management. This started with CEOs, and as the amounts grew, others came to get their share. Lawyers and bankers, because they help to keep it obscure and keep the taxes low. BoD, then senior management, 1-2 levels below the CEO and company directors, because otherwise they wouldn’t support the outrageous compensation the CEOs were getting.

Now it is a self-sustaining sub-segment of the economy. You can see it in the income distribution data where there is a huge bubble in the top 1%.

Corporations can point to increasing profit margins as proof of merit, and they are telling the truth. But not the whole truth, because it is at the expense of investing in the US infrastructure and workforce. Now the golden goose is starting to look a bit dull.

I gotta go do the dishes...
__________________
MichaelB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 08:34 PM   #74
Confused about dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by NW-Bound View Post
CEOs like Warren Buffett and Steve Jobs are far and few in between. I dare say that most CEOs can be fired and the corporation would not miss them. Many may even prosper.
That may be why one congressman after hearing the CEO of BP said aside, "Anyone can do his job."
__________________
Otter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 08:40 PM   #75
Administrator
Gumby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 10,137
Excessive executive compensation distorts the essence of capitalism itself. We no longer have corporations run as profit maximizing enterprises for the benefit of the equity owners/shareholders, but as wage and bonus maximizing enterprises for senior management. This can and does lead to suboptimal allocations of capital and substantial inefficiencies in operations.
__________________
Living an analog life in the Digital Age.
Gumby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 08:59 PM   #76
Moderator
ziggy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gumby View Post
Excessive executive compensation distorts the essence of capitalism itself. We no longer have corporations run as profit maximizing enterprises for the benefit of the equity owners/shareholders, but as wage and bonus maximizing enterprises for senior management. This can and does lead to suboptimal allocations of capital and substantial inefficiencies in operations.
I agree for the most part, and part of the problem is the incestuous relationship so many execs have with each other in terms of appointing each other to the other's boardrooms to rubber stamp excessive compensation.

Having said that, a handful of execs earn everything they get and then some. So I'm not sure any "cap" is a good idea, even though most are way overpaid relative to how much (or little) they add value compared to those just below them willing to do it for a lot less.
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)

RIP to Reemy, my avatar dog (2003 - 9/16/2017)
ziggy29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 09:12 PM   #77
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
dex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gumby View Post
Excessive executive compensation distorts the essence of capitalism itself. We no longer have corporations run as profit maximizing enterprises for the benefit of the equity owners/shareholders, but as wage and bonus maximizing enterprises for senior management. This can and does lead to suboptimal allocations of capital and substantial inefficiencies in operations.
There are two other aspects in that equation - dissolution of ownership and investors rather than owners. Due to the number of shares outstanding no one person owns a significant percentage of the company so, no one person or persons has clout with management. The ease of buying and selling shares has turned people into investors not owners with a commitment to the company.

While we are at it we might as well put some of the blame on the Board of Directors. They approve the compensation packages and approve major decisions of management.
__________________
Sometimes death is not as tragic as not knowing how to live. This man knew how to live--and how to make others glad they were living. - Jack Benny at Nat King Cole's funeral
dex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 09:18 PM   #78
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
wildcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lou-evil
Posts: 2,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Very well stated SunsetSail. Good to see that you 'get it'. All of us should do what we can to make sure our kids, or other young people in our life 'get it', too. Personally, I'd like to see some sort of annual or quarterly training class that all employees would need to take, so that this sinks in.

-ERD50
From my observation, most of my friends and contacts around my age seem to have learned personal finance 101 from their parents - as in if their parents are/were poor savers, they are too.

I think most could say they participate in a 401k or company retirement plan but those who do don't save nearly enough. Most I know stop @ the matching contribution (thinking that is the max?) and no nothing about Roth IRAs.
__________________
"These walls are kind of funny. First you hate 'em, then you get used to 'em. Enough time passes, gets so you depend on them"
wildcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 11:30 PM   #79
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,571
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
From my observation, most of my friends and contacts around my age seem to have learned personal finance 101 from their parents - as in if their parents are/were poor savers, they are too.
While I can think of many contacts and friends who seemed to have followed in their parents footsteps in terms of financial habist and knowledge, I also know many people who are the opposite - good savers whose parents were poor savers, poor savers whose parents where good savers.

I'm already begining to worry about my own children
__________________
Budgeting is a skill practised by people who are bad at politics.
traineeinvestor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2010, 05:22 AM   #80
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,072
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
This is an incredibly poorly informed and complacent post. I am really surprised at your lack of understanding.

Many of these people never had any money to save- if there ever was anything left after rent and food and a little beer to make Dad's life endurable, it went to getting some child's rotting teeth fixed.

I realize that the "disadvantaged" groups with political power, or the power to scare municipal governements with threats of violence will do better, but there will alwys be people who really cannot make it in the modern world, which demands intellectual and behavioral traits and skills that are way beyond these groups. Some from thse groups will always make it in the world, but let us not forget the bell curve; it is real.

I am not saying that we should necessarily try to do anything about this, but why heap scorn on people who are already downtrodden and hapless?

Ha


Wow! I am not sure what you think I was communicating... or how you are interpreting it. You are bordering on a non sequitur leap....

Obviously there are people that live in poverty?? It is a problem, often rooted in a cycle of failure to thrive in our society... often passed from parent to child. In some cases, there is institutional bigotry and racism that is a root cause. Yes some people experience health problems that were no fault of their own.

That particular issue was not my point.

My point: Many middle class people have not saved for retirement. They are at the age where the balance sheet of their life's earning potential will be reconciled. Their lifestyle is going to drop because they spent it in their early years.... instead of saving for later. Consumption smoothing.

Are there some exceptions to what happened to the group? Sure! But I think we can see from studies that many did not save enough.

It is not intended to be an insensitive statement, rather a statement of fact.

Perhaps I should have include the middle class statement.
__________________

__________________
chinaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Took Social Security too Early - Now what? dkcdoug Hi, I am... 3 05-31-2010 04:17 AM
Collecting Social Security Early (Before 66) blueeyes88 Hi, I am... 8 05-12-2008 05:35 PM
Early retirement and Social Security jimhcom FIRE and Money 6 05-23-2006 10:13 AM
Early social security--the first year eriter Other topics 3 01-25-2006 02:51 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:06 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.