More Public Pension Woes—Constructive Suggestions Wanted

[HsiaoChu]

My goodness. I was just inquiring as to the specific example that ziggy29 has been talking about for months as being a bit inequitable. I don't understand how the other comparisons you suggest pertain to that. I guess I'll back out of the discussion NOW. (tiptoe-ing away)

Seemed like an interesting thing to know. You don't have to tiptoe away. There are enormous inequities in the world. Right now after all the civil rights stuff, except for public education, women always make about 88% less than men on average in the highly touted example business world that everyone in education is supposed to emulate.

I don't know how an aide in my system could be "promoted" to a teacher. Teachers need a full four year degree, and then virtually a masters after 5 years to keep teaching. Almost eveyone with more than five years of experience in PA has a masters degree. Aides generally have a high school diploma. A few have college degrees, but they have been out of it so long that they couldn't possibly pass the praxis exam in the area of education to be "highly qualified" under the mandatory No Child Left Behind legislation.

Its a well known fact that educators should make less that other similiarly trained and experienced professionals because those people leech their money out of us through product costs which is just ok, and the educators do it from taxes, which is just not OK.

Just my observation after 40 years in the education business.

Not to be perceived as everywhere; your environment may be different.

Z

 

[ziggy29]

I don't know how an aide in my system could be "promoted" to a teacher. Teachers need a full four year degree, and then virtually a masters after 5 years to keep teaching. Almost eveyone with more than five years of experience in PA has a masters degree. Aides generally have a high school diploma. A few have college degrees, but they have been out of it so long that they couldn't possibly pass the praxis exam in the area of education to be "highly qualified" under the mandatory No Child Left Behind legislation.

For one thing, she already has a four year degree. And it's a small, rural district on a pretty low pay scale that sometimes has trouble attracting fully certified teachers. Many rural districts use the "alternative certification" available in Texas to address problems like rural areas and math/science teachers. It's a 1-2 year program that takes folks with a bachelor's degree, meets on weekends and in the summer for the training and coursework. At the end of it, if you pass through the hoops, you're a certified teacher.

Sounds like your opinion of aides and their ability is pretty low, by the way.

 

[ERD50]

Good question. While we're at it I'd also like to know......

And expressed as a percentage, what is the ratio of a brand new doctor's salary compared to a a doctor with a specialty and 20 years of experience?

And expressed as a percentage, what is the ratio of a brand new corporate executive compared to an executive up the ladder and with 20 years of experience?

And expressed as a percentage, what is the ratio of a brand new lawyer at the bottom of the corporate ladder with a lawyer with 20 years of experience in trial litigation?

And expressed as a percentage, what is the ratio of a brand new CFP with one who has been in the business for 20 years?

All of these are important comparisons.

Z

Geez, it was a question from W2R, not an indictment.

It is answerable, I picked an IL district from this site:

Champion News

and found about a 3:1 spread, with ~ $39,000 for 1 year full-time teachers, and ~ $116,500 for those with 27-33 years experience.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think where your analogy breaks down is, in the comparison cases you mentioned, those with more experience would also be given more responsibility and have a different job description. As far as I know, there are no higher standards set for a 5th grade teacher with 20 years experience versus one with 2 years experience. They are expected to teach the 5th graders. Hopefully, the one with experience is better at it (or maybe it comes 'easier' to them with experience, so they should be paid less might be some people's thinking?), but I don't think they say - your kids have to score higher on the standardized tests, or anything. To be honest, I can't say I've seen much correlation between years OTJ and performance with my kids teachers. They've had some terrible teachers who were there a long time, and some great ones that were new to teaching, and vice versa.

At Mega-Corp, you were put in a "Job Grade". There was a range of pay for that grade (I forget how wide it was), but if you were performing middling work, you would be in the middling pay range for that grade. Pretty much regardless of time-in-grade - if you were higher up the scale within that grade, it would be because those years of experience translated to performance, not simply how long you were there. You didn't move up in grade based on years, it was based on performance.

-ERD50

 

[ziggy29]

Geez, it was a question from W2R, not an indictment.

It is answerable, I picked an IL district from this site:

Champion News

and found about a 3:1 spread, with ~ $39,000 for 1 year full-time teachers, and ~ $116,500 for those with 27-33 years experience.

Just looked up the numbers in my district. Teachers start at about $35,000 and go up to $51,000 after 20 years. After 40 years it's still only $58,000. It's pretty hard to claim teachers are overpaid here.

In contrast, aide pay here for 20 years is about $21,000. So you can see what a pop it can give to a pension by spending the last 5 years as a teacher, even if you had to start at the "0 year" on the teacher pay scale.

Maybe now Z can see why there aren't a huge number of teachers with masters degrees and impeccable "academia" credentials in this district -- and why there can sometimes be recruiting problems. Funny thing is, our district has much better outcomes than many districts that pay a lot more, but that's another discussion for another time. I'd say the taxpayers here are getting a pretty good deal compared to most in the country...

 

[ERD50]

Almost eveyone with more than five years of experience in PA has a masters degree.

And why is that? Apparently it isn't a requirement, or everyone would need to have it, rather than 'almost everyone'. From what I know in IL, since there is no such thing as a 'merit' raise for teachers, getting a Masters is one certifiable way to get a raise.

Have studies been done to correlate that degree with performance? I wonder how it is I've been happy with many of the new teachers (and old) without their Masters?

Its a well known fact that educators should make less that other similiarly trained and experienced professionals because those people leech their money out of us through product costs which is just ok, and the educators do it from taxes, which is just not OK.

I don't understand why you get so snarky about this. It isn't even a good comparison. Once I'm taxed, I really don't have much say in which teachers my kids get. Or I might not even have kids in the system.

But I have a choice in products, and if one company is 'leeching' me to over-pay their workers beyond the value they put into their products, I will go to their competition. Give me that choice in schools, and let's see what happens?

-ERD50

 

[FinanceDude]

Its a well known fact that educators should make less that other similiarly trained and experienced professionals because those people leech their money out of us through product costs which is just ok, and the educators do it from taxes, which is just not OK.

Just my observation after 40 years in the education business.

Not to be perceived as everywhere; your environment may be different.

Z

Tell me why performanced-based teaching assessments should NOT be applied these days. They ARE applied in virtually ALL private sector jobs. You don't make the grade, you don't have a job.

Both my parents are retired teachers drawing a state pension, so I think I have a little inkling on what teachers face...........

 

[Bestwifeever]

Sounds like a lot of school districts operate differently than those in Pennsylvania. The only way you can get hired into my local school district (typically after completing a masters) is as an aide or a substitute. Once the principal knows (and likes) you, you're at the top of the list for a teaching position--this informal system has been in place for 30 years that I know of. Chances of an experienced teacher transferring right into the district as a classroom teacher? Slim to none as they would be getting paid a lot more over the former aide/substitute for that teaching job.

 

[ziggy29]

The only way you can get hired into my local school district out of school is as an aide or a substitute. Once the principal knows (and likes) you, you're at the top of the list for a teaching position.

Funny, this is exactly the angle DW is working now as a substitute (and previously as an aide) if she ends up pursuing a career in education.

The aide position wasn't really the right "fit" for what she does best, but as far as I can tell, she enjoys being in a "regular" classroom and seems to be very good at it; everyone from the kids to the other teachers to the principal all seem to like her and think she's doing well. I wish the work was steadier and had benefits, but she's clearly happier now in her current position, so as long as I can keep this job until she gets it all sorted out, it's all good.

 

[Westernskies]

I guess I'll back out of the discussion NOW. (tiptoe-ing away)

Have no fear, WS is here!

(wading back in...)

 

[REWahoo]

The aide position wasn't really the right "fit" for what she does best, but as far as I can tell, she enjoys being in a "regular" classroom and seems to be very good at it; everyone from the kids to the other teachers to the principal all seem to like her and think she's doing well. I wish the work was steadier and had benefits, but she's clearly happier now in her current position, so as long as I can keep this job until she gets it all sorted out, it's all good.

If she has plans to work herself into a teaching position I hope she fares better than DW's SIL. She worked as a substitute and tutor for several years then jumped through all the hoops to get her TX certification last summer (she was certified in Ohio and had taught there for a couple of years). She was 'hand picked' by the principal to fill an open teaching position at the same school last fall.

She hates it and is counting the days to the end of the year. Swears she'll never do anything but substitute ever again.

Go figure.

 

[W2R]

Have no fear, WS is here!

(wading back in...)

Oh now THAT is a great comfort.

It sounds like Ziggy's wife, by this method, would earn a pension that is 70% of the amount that she would have earned had she obtained a teacher's position from the start. That doesn't sound like she would be "working the system" too scandalously, to me.

(scuttling to the wings)

 

[Westernskies]

Good question. While we're at it I'd also like to know......

And expressed as a percentage, what is the ratio of a brand new corporate executive compared to an executive up the ladder and with 20 years of experience?

All of these are important comparisons.

Z

Sometimes it's important to compare apples and oranges...


I'll weigh in on the corporate side..

60% of my pay in 2009 was performance-based. I draw a relatively modest salary (40% of my total income in 2009) and earn most of my income based on how well my team and I perform against a specified objective- weighted roughly 50/50. I have been doing this for 24 years, moving from an outside sales position to Sales Manager to VP. Some years are better than others;for example, I earned less in 2009 than I did in 1999. My earnings fluctuate every year, not always upward.

Willing to move away from the NEA and be compensated based on how well you perform personally and how well your peers in the local school district perform against a top-weighted average?

...and you will have to work summers.

 

[ERD50]

bold mine...

There are enormous inequities in the world. Right now after all the civil rights stuff, except for public education, women always make about 88% less than men on average in the highly touted example business world that everyone in education is supposed to emulate.

Z

Can't believe I missed that one....

For the same job, same experience, same performance? Wow, I wish someone would have told me, it sure would have made salary adjustment time easier - 'hey boss, she's a girl, she automatically gets less - easy; we can split the difference across all the guys!'... If that didn't get me a 'coaching session' down at HR, I could follow up with 'hey boss, why don't we just pay everyone the same regardless of anything, and go grab lunch - easy!'

I'm really curious how you come to this conclusion. I certainly didn't see it in the MegaCorp environment.

-ERD50

 

[Westernskies]

Last year the highest paid employee in my group was a woman- she made more in performance-based compensation than all her peers.

DW will make more money than I do in 2010, working for Megacorp. She has 20+ years experience, working her way up from a retail sales associate to VP. It can be done, but not 9-5 with summers off.

Two examples of how the " highly touted example business world that everyone in education is supposed to emulate" is working pretty well.

 

[Spanky]

women always make about 88% less than men on average ..

That's a huge difference! Are you trying to say that women earn 88 percent of what men earn?

 

[Spanky]

It can be done, but not 9-5 ..

Let's give them credit. Teachers may have homework - preparing instruction, grading students' work, and performing other administrative coordinated tasks.

 

[Westernskies]

Let's give them credit. Teachers may have homework - preparing instruction, grading students' work, and performing other administrative coordinated tasks.

...it was meant figuratively, not literally (i.e, set working hours, home for dinner every night, no overnight business travel, etc.)

 

[kyounge1956]

Since I'm not an actuary by even the remotest stretch of the imagination, I defer to your well thought out and described position regarding this. I'll assue that you are correct.

Neither am I. My assertion that the extra cost is not "tens of percentage points" (the annual penalty that was originally suggested) was based on simple division: 31/30=1.033. In other words, paying a pension for 31 years is about 3% more money than paying the same pension for 30 years.

My point is that after 27 years many teachers are burned out, and at the moment with the incredibly stupid rules of NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND law, which by political fiat has simply removed the normal curve, has accelerated this. While those not working in education might see not any problem with removing everything but reading and math from an elementary child's curriculum, this is very debilitating for the education of children, and even more so for professional teachers. I personally know about 10 teachers in my system who are the best in the system who are leaving earlier that they wanted to do so because of this kind of pressure.

I agree that its no benefit to force sticking around. After a certain number of years you become suddenly burned out. But many have to stick around because the difference between a defined benefit plan that for the rest of their lives is a significant % down, means something over time. I can't understand that from a pension standpoint, paying the retired teacher $69k A YEAR as opposed to $75K a year multiplied by maybe 100,000 teachers(600 million dollars per year) wouldn't fail to help the system.

Agreed though, it may not help the education of children to have teachers who no longer care. And, caring is a significant part of being an effective teacher.

Z

It is not only teachers who get burned out, and not only people dealing with onerous workplace requirements. Even with no complaints about working conditions and a job I mostly enjoy, I am finding that after 25 years of chronic sleep deprivation (I'm a night owl in a morning lark's world), I'm just tired. It is just becoming more and more difficult to get myself out of bed in the morning. It's also becoming more difficult for me to learn and adapt to new things. I guess that is the reason I feel so strongly about not penalizing early retirement any more than is necessary to make it actuarially equivalent to working longer. I think it benefits everyone—the outgoing worker, the incoming employee, the government entity, and the citizens as a whole—to replace burned-out employees in any field with up-and-coming energetic new faces. Putting barriers in the way of that process doesn't make any sense to me at all.

 

[Emeritus]

Volcano Ash Refugee

I've been sitting in Frankfurt for the last 5 days waiting for a flight home.
I just read the whole thread but I thought I would give some general thoughts.

1) The percentage of salary required to give a high multiplier (1.8-2.2) defined benefit government pension is about 17-20% of salary. Governments that did not contribute adequate amounts all the time are the ones in trouble.

2) Pay for performance works for prostitutes, some athletes, some marketing and sales types and some doctors lawyers musicians and handwerkers whose output can be fairly easily evaluated over a short period of time. It is much harder to apply to a member of congress, a military officer or a rabbi.

internet glitch more later

 

[Emeritus]

follow up
3) gender discrimination in salary is very real in both formal and informal structures. Discrimination is a self reinforcing structure. No one will bother to "mentor" young professionals who face discrimination. (who want to coach the left handed catcher?) Quantifying the discrimination is difficult but estimates are about 10-15 %.

4) most academics at leading institutions are effectively in a pure pay for performance environment.. No unions. Very wide salary differentials top to bottom but the average is always much higher than foreign universities of the same quality. Same is true of corporate executives.
What do you think private schools pay their top teachers and principals? You can pay teachers with secirity and dignity or with cash

 

[Emeritus]

Sometimes it's important to compare apples and oranges...



Willing to move away from the NEA and be compensated based on how well you perform personally and how well your peers in the local school district perform against a top-weighted average?

.s.

Ok I'll assume you are a first class prostitute with a stable of satisfied customers
for you pay for performance is easy. But
How do you pay a baseball umpire for "performance" ? The ability to measure performance varies enormously from job to job.

What you get is pay for performance on a worthless test.

Would megacorp hire an employee based on 5th grade test results? What makes anyone think that you can generate a simplistic test for 11 year olds that can show how well the teacher teaches.? how many of your employees are graded on how well their subordinates do in tests?

 

[ERD50]

It is not only teachers who get burned out,...

Yes, there is something about the tone of Z's posts that make it sound like these issues are unique to teachers. I don't get that. At least summers off, and long uninterrupted Holidays ought to provide a little stress relief. I dreaded the times that we were preparing for a house full of guests, and the Holiday coincided with the fiscal end-of-month, or end-of-year and we were on the hook to get shipments out right up to the second the docks closed.

2) Pay for performance works .... is much harder to apply to a member of congress, a military officer or a rabbi.

Tougher, yes. Impossible, no. I'd say that an imperfect measurement is better than no measurement at all.

3) gender discrimination in salary is very real in both formal and informal structures. Discrimination is a self reinforcing structure. No one will bother to "mentor" young professionals who face discrimination.

I disagree. It would have been stupid and self-limiting for me to ignore the bright new engineer, just because of gender or minority status. The best thing I could hope for is to have bright, motivated people working for me. If I could mentor them to steer them in the right direction, that made my life so much easier.

In fact, I would say that the MegaCorp 'diversity' initiatives worked in just the opposite manner. You would be encouraged to go out of your way to help the minority succeed.

What makes anyone think that you can generate a simplistic test for 11 year olds that can show how well the teacher teaches.?

As I said above, an imperfect measurement is better than none at all. If it was my job to educate children, I can't imagine *not* measuring the teacher's performance as part of that job.

how many of your employees are graded on how well their subordinates do in tests?

If you consider 'meeting your goals' a test (I think it is the best test), then that is exactly how I was graded. Most of my goals were ones that my team had to accomplish. I couldn't do them alone, it was up to me and my team ('subordinates' if you go strictly by hierarchy). That's one reason I wanted the best performing people on my team, regardless of their ethnicity, gender, or fashion sense or anything else.

-ERD50

 

[Emeritus]

Tougher, yes. Impossible, no. I'd say that an imperfect measurement is better than no measurement at all.






I disagree. It would have been stupid and self-limiting for me to ignore the bright new engineer, just because of gender or minority status. The best thing I could hope for is to have bright, motivated people working for me. If I could mentor them to steer them in the right direction, that made my life so much easier.

In fact, I would say that the MegaCorp 'diversity' initiatives worked in just the opposite manner. You would be encouraged to go out of your way to help the minority succeed.



As I said above, an imperfect measurement is better than none at all. If it was my job to educate children, I can't imagine *not* measuring the teacher's performance as part of that job.

If you consider 'meeting your goals' a test (I think it is the best test), then that is exactly how I was graded. Most of my goals were ones that my team had to accomplish. I couldn't do them alone, it was up to me and my team ('subordinates' if you go strictly by hierarchy). That's one reason I wanted the best performing people on my team, regardless of their ethnicity, gender, or fashion sense or anything else.

-ERD50

I must strongly disagree with part of your post and you misunderstood another part.

Imperfect measures are not better than no measure e.g.
I give you a pot of hot water and you get to measure it with a yardstick
you report the temperature as 14 inches.

Second Mentoring is not getting smart people to work for you and make you look good , women have been exploited that way for centuries. Mentoring is qualifying them to replace you in due course. How many men bring along women as successors?

Its easy to test teachers in how well they teach students to measure temperature with a yardstick. It simply does not mean anything

 

[ziggy29]

Second Mentoring is not getting smart people to work for you and make you look good , women have been exploited that way for centuries. Mentoring is qualifying them to replace you in due course. How many men bring along women as successors?

How and when did this become a thread about gender discrimination?

 

[Emeritus]

How and when did this become a thread about gender discrimination?

Well actually all defined benefit pension discussions have a gender equity component