More Unprepared Folks

The product many people really need is an option contract that would allow them to buy insurance in the future at a price determined today by the current risk. We actually had a faculty member who studied this issue.
It was essentially buying insurance against the risk of becoming uninsurable. The math was impeccable but the industry was uninterested.

Did he present an "impeccable case" as to how the insurance companies would reinsure that kind of longevity risk? They probably could, but the premiums would be so high noone would buy it, kinda like trying to sell LTC to a healthy 40 year old..........;)
 
If there are potential estate tax issues it can still make sense, as you may need the cash to pay the taxes without liquidating the estate. If there are no estate tax issues I would tend to agree.

Trusts do not remove ALL estate planning issues.......;)
 
You can almost believe that the people who sell this crap actually think people should buy it. But really it's all a scam to line their pockets and rip us all off.

fritz, you are correct, it's all double talk.
 
I believe most term insurance policies are dropped in favor of a more competitive rate with another company - just like shopping for auto/home insurance.

Actually, does not happen much in the real world. If you are 7 years into a 20 year term, you can't merely "swap out" for a better deal. You are thinking of this like car insurance, you are forgetting about underwriting with regards to health changes, actuarial tables, etc. A car is just a car, so it is apples to apples, not so with life insurance. FWIW, 96% of all term insurance policies end without paying out. Insurers LOVE writing term, it's like free money, particularly for young healthy folks. It is true whole life policies are much more expensive, but the insurer is on the hook for your "whole life"......

Dave Ramsey is good at many things, but understanding insurance is not one of them...........

I personally think the comment relating to selling whole life/gul(lible) insurance policies on the premise that people are generally too inept to save for their own future is insulting to this forum, and people in general.

I doubt most of any on here have a whole life policy. Permanent life insurance works very well for very wealthy individuals, because they can transfer wealth efficiently. Multi-millionaires are some of the biggest purchasers of permanent insurance in the world. They are not doing it because they are inept.........;)

Based on your premise, you should get rid of your homeowners insurance when your house is paid off, get rid of your car insurance when it is paid off, etc.
 
Actually, does not happen much in the real world. If you are 7 years into a 20 year term, you can't merely "swap out" for a better deal. You are thinking of this like car insurance, you are forgetting about underwriting with regards to health changes, actuarial tables, etc. A car is just a car, so it is apples to apples, not so with life insurance. FWIW, 96% of all term insurance policies end without paying out. Insurers LOVE writing term, it's like free money, particularly for young healthy folks. It is true whole life policies are much more expensive, but the insurer is on the hook for your "whole life"......

Why would you think you have to keep a term life insurance policy for its full term and not pick up another that's cheaper? I swapped out of (guaranteed renewable/convertible level term) life insurance policies about every three years or so myself when another opportunity for a cheaper/better policy came along (you know they always come along). You should receive an annual pricing chart showing when you'll be going up in the new policy (the heavier hit is @ 45, 55), so you can determine if the cost now and in the future is worth the swap. You're only "stuck" with your old policy if you're in poor health.

You can also cut your insurance costs if you no longer need as "much" life insurance as you needed when you were younger.

These are the reasons your independent agent usually makes a trip out to see you when your current policy expires (he's not a company agent - he's independent).


Remember - term life insurance is a hedge against your life - you never want it to pay out! You hope to be somewhat financially well off later in life to not carry it (the reason why the majority of people let it lapse, and don't renew it).

Whole life on the other hand, is a contract "for life" - for you to have any chance at getting any of your hard earned money back from having paid "extra" in premiums your whole life - you need it to pay out! (Even then, you have to subtract the cash value from the face value, and you have to die.) They should really call it "Death Insurance"...

Dave Ramsey is good at many things, but understanding insurance is not one of them...........

Has a decent radio show, but don't really follow "debt free" Dave...

I doubt most of any on here have a whole life policy. Permanent life insurance works very well for very wealthy individuals, because they can transfer wealth efficiently. Multi-millionaires are some of the biggest purchasers of permanent insurance in the world. They are not doing it because they are inept.........;)

But "Death Insurance" is not a great idea for 99% of the rest of us (previously implied as inept)...
Now who's being inept ;)

Based on your premise, you should get rid of your homeowners insurance when your house is paid off, get rid of your car insurance when it is paid off, etc.

No - never implied that - you have. Life insurance is entirely different than auto and home insurance. You may not always need life insurance (and congratulations goes with that scenario), but you'll always want auto and home insurance while you own either of them (defensible action protection, and wealth insurance).

For what it's worth...
 
You can almost believe that the people who sell this crap actually think people should buy it. But really it's all a scam to line their pockets and rip us all off.

fritz, you are correct, it's all double talk.

UH..ok.........:LOL:
 
Nah - you still don't see the light (and you know my comments were on the money). FYI - you shouldn't assume people on this forum have never walked a mile in your shoes ;)

:confused::confused: Based on your posts, that is exactly what I am thinking.......;)
 
For what it's worth...

For what it's worth, I'm an independent agent, not a company agent.
For what it's worth, I never meet 90% of my clients.
For what it's worth, I've never had a single complaint.
For what it's worth, I think you are being naive in your assessment of life insurance and how it applies to the general public :whistle:
 
For what it's worth, I'm an independent agent, not a company agent.
For what it's worth, I never meet 90% of my clients.
For what it's worth, I've never had a single complaint.
For what it's worth, I think you are being naive in your assessment of life insurance and how it applies to the general public :whistle:

Quit making sense, obviously nobody cares........;)
 
For what it's worth, I'm an independent agent, not a company agent.
For what it's worth, I never meet 90% of my clients.
For what it's worth, I've never had a single complaint.
For what it's worth, I think you are being naive in your assessment of life insurance and how it applies to the general public :whistle:

I don't have life insurance.

What the frak are you trying to prove?

Are you related to the pro-disease troll on the health forum?
:cool:
 
I don't have life insurance.

What the frak are you trying to prove?

Are you related to the pro-disease troll on the health forum?
:cool:

I didn't mention anything about you having life insurance, not sure what you're referring to...
 
I think dgoldenz has made some valuable posts on this thread. If someone doesn't want life insurance, or a particular type of life insurance, they shouldn't buy it. But it doesn't hurt anyone to get both sides of the argument in order to make an informed decision.
 
Insurance companies can kiss my effin arse. I have had a term policy for 20 years, and called to get additional coverage this summer wehn I got laid off and lost $250,000 of coverage my ex-employer provided to me.

Cut to end of story - they flat out rejected me for a policy on the grounds that I AM AN ALCOHOLIC....(all caps is my way of screaming, a la Lewis Black). You guys don't know me but I can tell you I DO NOT DRINK.

Oh and, this "fact" was promptly delivered the the MIB (medical information bureau, an ominous spy) forever and into perpetuity. Any company I approach now for insurance will see that I AM AN ALCOHOLIC and should be marketed to accordingly.

Pleez. I have been so flustered :mad: by this travesty and injustice, that I have given up, and in my severance/layoff/retirement, i have found a delightful new hobby.....DRINKING!!!

(i am fighting the good fight tho, and will know in a few weeks if I successfully "proved" to the company that I am NOT AN ALCOHOLIC, which is sort of like proving you are not gay, or not atheist...:angel:)

true story
 
Did he present an "impeccable case" as to how the insurance companies would reinsure that kind of longevity risk? They probably could, but the premiums would be so high noone would buy it, kinda like trying to sell LTC to a healthy 40 year old..........;)

it's built into every life insurance policy issued today that is not repriced based on health. . I.e. I dont pay more if I become uninsurable so I'm already paying for the option. You subdivide the premium and risk into the life risk and the insurability risk
 
FWIW, 96% of all term insurance policies end without paying out. Insurers LOVE writing term, it's like free money, particularly for young healthy folks. It is true whole life policies are much more expensive, but the insurer is on the hook for your "whole life"......

.

I'm sorry but this is life insurance salesman crapola nonsense. MOST insurance policies do not pay out. that is why the premiums don't add up to the payout amount. It's INSURANCE

my 400,000 policy costs 1500 a year for 20 years to age 72 . Total premium is $30,000 I certainly hope they don't pay out.

But its not free money 'm buying INSURANCE and I'm shifting the risk to them
 
I'm sorry but this is life insurance salesman crapola nonsense.
Uh, I don't sell life insurance, nice try.......:greetings10:



MOST insurance policies do not pay out. that is why the premiums don't add up to the payout amount. It's INSURANCE

So, whole life has no use, whatever, to anyone?


But its not free money 'm buying INSURANCE and I'm shifting the risk to them

Not debating that, as a matter of fact, this thread should talk about more that truism than the usual drumbeat mantra of "life insurance is a ripoff".........

I own quite a bit of life insurance, but that's my decision. I am a big advocate of risk transference..........;)
 
I think dgoldenz has made some valuable posts on this thread. If someone doesn't want life insurance, or a particular type of life insurance, they shouldn't buy it. But it doesn't hurt anyone to get both sides of the argument in order to make an informed decision.

+1

dgoldenz is NOT soliciting to anyone, but he obviously knows the industry. I find that valuable, but YMMV..........
 
For what it's worth, I'm an independent agent, not a company agent.
For what it's worth, I never meet 90% of my clients.
For what it's worth, I've never had a single complaint.
For what it's worth, I think you are being naive in your assessment of life insurance and how it applies to the general public :whistle:

Translation:
For what it's worth, this makes a diff. because?
For what it's worth, why would you want to?
For what it's worth, not one of my clients ever woke up.
For what it's worth, I think you are paying attention and I wish you'd go to sleep like the rest of my victims/clients.

But hey, everyone has to make a living.:whistle:
 
This, my friends, is what the esteemed Cute Fuzzy Bunny would have referred to, ever so poetically, as a hairball. A subject upon which the participants will never see eye-to-eye and will resist any argument, reasonable or otherwise, to change their hairball belief.

Edit to add Martha's citation: "Hairball":* A block to rational decision making.* They're complex intellectual, emotional...and/or sometimes physical claptraps, the origin of which probably cant be determined. Post #58 on this thread.
http://early-retirement.org/forums/i...7507#msg157507
 
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Insurance companies can kiss my effin arse. I have had a term policy for 20 years, and called to get additional coverage this summer wehn I got laid off and lost $250,000 of coverage my ex-employer provided to me.

Group life insurance is a bad deal unless you're in terrible health and can't health qualify to get your own policy. What happens if your company goes bankrupt? What happens when you get laid off (as mentioned above)? What happens when you change jobs? If you need X amount of dollars in coverage, buy X amount on an individually owned policy which can't be taken away from you for reasons beyond your control. Unfortunately, you found this out the hard way.

Are you working with an independent agent who can shop your case with multiple companies, or did you apply with a company directly? If you have never been a drinker, odds are you were rejected for your liver enzymes being too high. Elevated liver enzymes is often associated with heavy drinking, but that's not always the cause. It should be easy enough for your doctor to clear up the information with a letter stating you do not drink alcohol, but it sounds like there is more to the story than that.
 
Uh, I don't sell life insurance, nice try.......:greetings10:





So, whole life has no use, whatever, to anyone?




Not debating that, as a matter of fact, this thread should talk about more that truism than the usual drumbeat mantra of "life insurance is a ripoff".........

I own quite a bit of life insurance, but that's my decision. I am a big advocate of risk transference..........;)

I didn't say you sold it. I do say you are repeating what I IMHO consider life insurance salesman crapola.

The crapola is not about insurance it is about using your need for insurance to push you to invest with them
Insurance is insurance, investment is investment.

You have to have a demonstrably good reason to combine them
Insurance is a method of paying to avoid the catastrophic effect of a probabilistic event. Very useful stuff.

Investments are a different issue. Insurance companeis can only offer a very limited form of investment.

Whole life insurance is a hybrid product. Hybrid products, whether sporks, cane swords, battleship /aircraft carriers/ helicopter airplanes , Amphi cars, or snowblower rototillers can always be designed and promoted. Few are a really good idea. With very few exceptions however they are irrational outside of a niche.

It is normally irrational to buy insurance for events which you can easily absorb since the transaction costs are very high. So you take big deductables on home and car insurance.

Annuities are a form of insurance against longevity risk. they are by necessity a hybrid product, which is why pricing is critical.

Health insurance for routine health care is not really insurance. It s is a form of buying cooperative. Because the market for health services does not work efficiently purchasers band together to buy the product.
 
Here you go!
 

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