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Old 01-09-2019, 11:46 AM   #241
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I'm glad to hear the libido decreases over time because if it wasn't for that I'd have just gotten a dog a long time ago. Although my current gf is super sweet and great...I know it's only a matter of time when she'll turn.

Everything works better with the upper control room in charge. That guy in the basement is a hassle.
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Old 01-09-2019, 11:50 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Music Lover View Post
A good example is the gender pay gap myth. It's been thoroughly debunked several times...virtually all the difference has been attributed to career choice and amount of hours worked. In spite of this, the myth continues to live on...mostly due to dishonest reporting and comments from high profile people.
100% correct.

Gender studies, child development and the lot are low paying.

I have a degree in Psychology. 80% of psych majors are female. I think it was Dave Ramsey why said a psych degree was useless. I agree it USUALLY turns out that way. My neighbor makes 300K as a psychologist, so it worked for him.
And I retired at 45 so I am glad.

But for the vast majority, useless degrees report to their shift at Starbucks.
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Old 01-09-2019, 11:55 AM   #243
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I am enjoying this thread and have not expressed an opinion on the thread's current topic due to my not seeing any point in doing so.

I think it's interesting that 97% of the alimony is paid by one sex. I wonder how they calculated that. Is it of the total amount or the percent of cases?

I counseled being respectful because I don't want the thread to be closed and would like to read more of the interesting facts about divorces and first-hand stories.

I am quite experienced in getting to know people with opinions that are different from mine. My best friend literally thinks "all women are stupid." He "hates them because they all think with their emotions." "Almost all of the country's problems stem from letting them vote." He has a PhD and thinks women's beauty is based solely on the size of their breasts. He mentioned that since his wife had become morbidly obese he almost lost interest in her "as a person" except for "because her t*ts got bigger so it was great."

I swear that is true. He has had some very bad luck with women over the four decades that I have known him. In my opinion it's because of his choices and emotional, hate-based thinking. He has three daughters and no sons.

We had a really good time in college where we met. I was already married when we were going to school and being young and immature. He was interested in girls and finding someone and I was firmly and completely married so we had different interests even then. But I learned to tune out the sexist and hate-filled comments starting back then.

One more example: One NYE night at our house, some twenty years later, we were drinking some champagne, well he and my wife were, I don't drink for medical and lack-of-interest reasons, and we were joking around in a sexist sort of humor way (None of it was directed at my wife.) and my wife, who has a fantastic sense of humor, laughed at a particularly raunchy joke and he stated "Geez, Mike, your wife is such a slut. [Pause] You are so lucky!" We all took it as a nice compliment as we had stated on a previous occasion that he and I liked 'sluts' because they had the same interests as us! (For the record: I have had only one each of the following: GFs and Wifes.) I am not a man-o-the-world. I have had many friends who have regaled me with vivid descriptions of their many experiences. My wife and I have been talking occasionally about his slut comment for many years and have come to the conclusion that he was extremely envious of us and me especially because I had found a 'good' woman. ie, one that who was nice and smart and who didn't hate the opposite sex. One of my wife's many great attributes is that she is kind of a regular-guy type of person due to her parents raising her in a equality-between-the-sexes household. So, the point of this story is that, when not having a hate-influenced thought, he realizes that there are women who are whole people who do not hate males. I think it was an eye-opener for him.

Lets hear some more stories and facts!

Mike D.
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:06 PM   #244
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That's OK Mr Tightward..I'm certain that your money will cry over your grave.....and I agree you should not be married.
The ole you'll die alone trick. Heard it before from my Ex, zero effect.
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:12 PM   #245
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Sure thing, I changed it to feminist I hope that's not 'crossing a line'

Really, I was not using innuendo to belittle and I was not trying to make a point of calling you a name. Pretty much, the reason I posted was: I don't want the thread closed as I am enjoying it.

Also, an artful dressing down is much more fun for everyone involved. And I know, having recvd many in my life, especially as a young teen from the likes of my world-weary 'aged' teachers. I was, to put it mildly, an under-achiever, who had little if any discipline from either within or without

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Old 01-09-2019, 12:22 PM   #246
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Mod note: Obviously there are some tough-to-discuss "core issues" being hashed over here. If we can keep the personal sniping out of it (paraphrase: "what people like you fail to see . . .," "you clearly are unhappy due to . . ."), and also keep the interaction polite and the unwarranted generalities in check, the thread will be more useful. More light, less heat. Thanks.
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:23 PM   #247
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The misogyny displayed on this thread is pretty thick. Perhaps the posters that have strong negative feelings about women should look to vent those feelings elsewhere. It's inappropriate for a forum on early retirement and it's becoming distracting to the point of being offensive.
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:24 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by MikeD View Post
I am enjoying this thread and have not expressed an opinion on the thread's current topic due to my not seeing any point in doing so.

I think it's interesting that 97% of the alimony is paid by one sex. I wonder how they calculated that. Is it of the total amount or the percent of cases?

I counseled being respectful because I don't want the thread to be closed and would like to read more of the interesting facts about divorces and first-hand stories.

I am quite experienced in getting to know people with opinions that are different from mine. My best friend literally thinks "all women are stupid." He "hates them because they all think with their emotions." "Almost all of the country's problems stem from letting them vote." He has a PhD and thinks women's beauty is based solely on the size of their breasts. He mentioned that since his wife had become morbidly obese he almost lost interest in her "as a person" except for "because her t*ts got bigger so it was great."

I swear that is true. He has had some very bad luck with women over the four decades that I have known him. In my opinion it's because of his choices and emotional, hate-based thinking. He has three daughters and no sons.

We had a really good time in college where we met. I was already married when we were going to school and being young and immature. He was interested in girls and finding someone and I was firmly and completely married so we had different interests even then. But I learned to tune out the sexist and hate-filled comments starting back then.

One more example: One NYE night at our house, some twenty years later, we were drinking some champagne, well he and my wife were, I don't drink for medical and lack-of-interest reasons, and we were joking around in a sexist sort of humor way (None of it was directed at my wife.) and my wife, who has a fantastic sense of humor, laughed at a particularly raunchy joke and he stated "Geez, Mike, your wife is such a slut. [Pause] You are so lucky!" We all took it as a nice compliment as we had stated on a previous occasion that he and I liked 'sluts' because they had the same interests as us! (For the record: I have had only one each of the following: GFs and Wifes.) I am not a man-o-the-world. I have had many friends who have regaled me with vivid descriptions of their many experiences. My wife and I have been talking occasionally about his slut comment for many years and have come to the conclusion that he was extremely envious of us and me especially because I had found a 'good' woman. ie, one that who was nice and smart and who didn't hate the opposite sex. One of my wife's many great attributes is that she is kind of a regular-guy type of person due to her parents raising her in a equality-between-the-sexes household. So, the point of this story is that, when not having a hate-influenced thought, he realizes that there are women who are whole people who do not hate males. I think it was an eye-opener for him.

Lets hear some more stories and facts!

Mike D.
1) its on a percent of cases, meaning for every male that receives alimony, there are 33 females getting paid.

2) I don't think all women are stupid. I know you didn't say I did, I am just stating my belief.

3)Women do think with their emotions. Post #175 demonstrated that.

4) Your friend appears uncouth. Not sure how that matters.

5) You seem like a genuinely nice man. I'm glad you're not divorced.

6) I encourage all readers to google the man in England, who found out that the 3 children he raised, didn't belong to him. He was infertile at birth. He found out when the oldest was 21. Dr's showed him how he was medically unable to conceive. His wife, who received 4 million pounds in the divorce (is that 5 million dollars?) admitted the kids did not belong to him. This woman is an example of an apple that ruins the barrel.
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:29 PM   #249
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The misogyny displayed on this thread is pretty thick.
Hurt feelings doesn't equal misogyny. I can take a lick and I can dish 'em out too. It's an interesting thread as long as everyone plays clean.
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:30 PM   #250
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I have been patiently reading the back and forth on this thread for a few days. I notice that many of those defending marriage here are actually defending aspects of any generic happy relationship - marriage or not - the closeness, the intimacy, cooking etc. “I love my wife more than ever”. That’s very sweet, and I respect that.

But none of it has anything to do with getting married.

I’m sure we all know some couples who have never married but love each other deeply. We probably know a lot more couples who have been married to each other for years - and can’t stand each other!

But ...100% of all divorced couples were married. They all went through the same processes, took the same vows, signed the same papers. Virtually none of them expected to get divorced. And yet they did anyway. And it will happen to 40% or more of marriages!

Talk to any divorced person and it is clear that at its core - after all the romantic trappings are stripped away- marriage is really a legal contract, with certain financial, tax, and legal implications. Some of the implications are good, some bad, all depending on the specific circumstances.

As Mr Tightwad and dvalley have shown, with facts and statistics, is that these implications can carry a lot of risks, especially for men, who are forced to pay the vast majority of alimony despite initiating the minority of divorces. Sure maybe he can mitigate the risks somewhat with a prenup - although these can be and are regularly challenged. Or maybe the divorce will be one of the less than 5% where the ex wife pays more. But these are rare circumstances.

The only way to avoid this sort of catastrophe in the first place is to avoid marriage completely. Which is what more and more men are deciding to do apparently.

Given how common and potentially devastating divorce is, why is it still so taboo to discuss it?
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:33 PM   #251
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I believe a lot of women want men not to focus on paying alimony, seeing their kids 4 days a month, fear of losing your job which results in incarceration due to non payment, etc.

If I had a new hobby, I might not be able to make men aware of the dangers of marriage.

What I'm getting from your post is, "don't pay attention to the financial devastation of getting divorced men, just think about something else".

I prefer to be informed of what occurs in the world.
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:34 PM   #252
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The misogyny displayed on this thread is pretty thick. Perhaps the posters that have strong negative feelings about women should look to vent those feelings elsewhere. It's inappropriate for a forum on early retirement and it's becoming distracting to the point of being offensive.
Facing the realities of divorce is not misogyny. Divorce statistics, discussing alimony payments and declining marriage rates and the reason for that, is not misogyny.

Sweeping it under the rug, or pretending the realities of marriage don't exist, doesn't help in any way.
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:39 PM   #253
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I have been patiently reading the back and forth on this thread for a few days. I notice that many of those defending marriage here are actually defending aspects of any generic happy relationship - marriage or not - the closeness, the intimacy, cooking etc. “I love my wife more than ever”. That’s very sweet, and I respect that.

But none of it has anything to do with getting married.

I’m sure we all know some couples who have never married but love each other deeply. We probably know a lot more couples who have been married to each other for years - and can’t stand each other!

But ...100% of all divorced couples were married. They all went through the same processes, took the same vows, signed the same papers. Virtually none of them expected to get divorced. And yet they did anyway. And it will happen to 40% or more of marriages!

Talk to any divorced person and it is clear that at its core - after all the romantic trappings are stripped away- marriage is really a legal contract, with certain financial, tax, and legal implications. Some of the implications are good, some bad, all depending on the specific circumstances.

As Mr Tightwad and dvalley have shown, with facts and statistics, is that these implications can carry a lot of risks, especially for men, who are forced to pay the vast majority of alimony despite initiating the minority of divorces. Sure maybe he can mitigate the risks somewhat with a prenup - although these can be and are regularly challenged. Or maybe the divorce will be one of the less than 5% where the ex wife pays more. But these are rare circumstances.

The only way to avoid this sort of catastrophe in the first place is to avoid marriage completely. Which is what more and more men are deciding to do apparently.

Given how common and potentially devastating divorce is, why is it still so taboo to discuss it?
Excellent post. Hope everyone reads it.

Prenups are throw our routinely. A man that relies on one is a fool.

And its 3% of the spousal support payers are female, not 5.
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:45 PM   #254
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Takes two to tango. Have a nice life.
Hi. Glad you posted that.

You mentioned it takes two to tango. Let's take a look at a serious subject. Spousal abuse. Violent spousal abuse. Now, the next time a woman is victimized, should she be told "it takes two to tango?".

So since we all know that sometimes a victim is innocent and has no fault in a situation, we clearly see it doesn't take two to tango.

I prevent spousal abuse at every opportunity. I hope the rest of you do the same.
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:51 PM   #255
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I find this topic interesting. I admit that I don't know many divorced people, so I can only speculate on why people might split. I have trouble understanding why it happens after so many years of marriage and children, especially. I'm curious what is missing, or what they expect to find when they leave?

I love my child more now than when she was born. I expect that to continue as she gets older. A spouse is just as worthy of unconditional love right? What happens in the marriage when people love their spouses less over time? Maybe I'm naive and old-fashioned. Who knows? Maybe my husband will blindside me one day and ask for a divorce. Maybe I've just been assuming I'm happily married.
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:51 PM   #256
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I'll be interested in how MMM deals with his new found freedom. Will it be marriage 2.0?

People respond in different ways to divorce. My own DF RIP was a fly. When a fly is on the outside he stays on the screen hoping to get in. When on the inside he's on the the screen hoping to get out.
Very strong image. I like it.

Ha
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Old 01-09-2019, 01:05 PM   #257
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[QUOTE=Mr. Tightwad;2170324]1) its on a percent of cases, meaning for every male that receives alimony, there are 33 females getting paid.

5) You seem like a genuinely nice man. I'm glad you're not divorced./QUOTE]

Thanks for both those and I mean it. I am not attacking you.

I am not referring to you in my stories, which I swear to be true and the quotes factual. In bringing up my buddy's statements I am giving examples of tolerating the extreme attitudes of some of my friends. I like excentrics and am, apparently, one myself. One of the things about me to which my wife was attracted was that I was a 'weirdo.' My aforementioned friend really says that stuff and often. I think I can readily recognize the emotionally based thinking in him because I lived with it in my Dad for 19 years. My father thought men and women were different in that they were not equal. I think they are different and both should have exactly equal treatment by the government showing no favors to either. Exactly. As one of my other close friends said to me when I was complaining about how my mother put up with my father, "We are all a product of our times." I had not clearly embraced that and it helped me immensely.

I don't like confrontation. I avoid it, sometimes to an extreme. So please don't think I am criticizing you. I am feeling vocal and like to talk and discuss things and tell true stories about experiences. That's how my wife and I have lived vicariously via our friends mistakes!

I was just pointing out that I could tolerate (and not confront) extreme views. I have great difficulty listening to my friend's opinions sometimes. But, as I tell my wife, if I only accepted people who were exactly right as friends, I would have none.

BTW, I am a feminist and not liberal. I saw my Dad not 'Let' my Ma work despite not having enough money. I strive to learn from other people's mistakes rather than my own but rarely have to timing to do so. I fall into the class of weirdos that encompasses "Libertarians" as I mostly think people should be free. That also means that I think people should be free to make mistakes. I do not believe protecting people from themselves is the government's job. For instance, I do not take recreational drugs but think people should be free to do so. As I think it does to most people wrt their own beliefs, It all seems so clear to me!

MOAR STOREYS!!!

Mike D.
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Old 01-09-2019, 01:16 PM   #258
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Very strong image. I like it.

Ha
I liked your earlier references to standing on the trap door with another at the control. Spot on.

I don't hate women, I have a mother and sister and other women in my family that I would lay down my life for. My greatest fear is not to be in control of me. I have zero interest in controlling anyone else. What were're seeing is unintended consequences of social engineering. Equal rights is something I'm in complete agreement with but some men are rebelling against the misandry of the court system and the government at large. A man in the past would sign up for marriage if it were rare that he would have his home, children, life taken away.
Now it's all stick and no carrot.

Just look at the marriage and birthrate stats., and it's going to get worse. I'm seeing articles such as where have all the good men gone. Trying to shame men back to a broken system just isn't going to work.

I don't know where it will end up but I see it's too late for me. I do worry for my son.
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Old 01-09-2019, 01:29 PM   #259
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Most of my HS friends are all still married. I have known many happy couples and many in my family. I dragged my ex to counseling more than once hoping to save our marriage. Both my arms were going numb and after many tests the neurologist determined that I was so tense my neck was literally strangling my arms. He told me something was seriously wrong with my life and I should figure it out. I left and it went away. I was making a lot less money than my ex but all I wanted was out at that point.
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Old 01-09-2019, 01:34 PM   #260
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I find this topic interesting. I admit that I don't know many divorced people, so I can only speculate on why people might split. I have trouble understanding why it happens after so many years of marriage and children, especially. I'm curious what is missing, or what they expect to find when they leave?

I love my child more now than when she was born. I expect that to continue as she gets older. A spouse is just as worthy of unconditional love right? What happens in the marriage when people love their spouses less over time? Maybe I'm naive and old-fashioned. Who knows? Maybe my husband will blindside me one day and ask for a divorce. Maybe I've just been assuming I'm happily married.
There is a book on Gray Divorce and why it happens. It's very common these days:

https://www.amazon.com/Gray-Divorce-.../dp/0520295323

As far as reasons why it happens, there are plenty. I'm not going to try to list them, but they include changes in personality, lack of sex, infidelity, trouble with finances, etc, etc.

And usually, both parents always love their children, even of they decide to split up.
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